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Union culture can be significant though. From my understanding, in the US I'd expect a union to refuse any form of automation indefinitely; in other countries,

Union culture can be significant though. From my understanding, in the US I'd expect a union to refuse any form of automation indefinitely; in other countries, they might accept it if the redundant staff are provided training for another job with good employment prospects.

masklinn 9y ago
> Union culture can be significant though. Union culture is as antagonistic in France as in the US (for the same reasons that corporations are antagonistic) and it not only has multiple GOA4 metro systems running right now across the country[0], Paris is actually converting existing lines to full automation. All of Germany (which has a much more cooperative union culture) has two GOA4 lines both in Nuremberg, meanwhile Copenhagen Metro (in highly unionised Denmark) was created fully automated back in 2002. I see no evidence that unions have anything to do with it. [0] quite literally: Lille, Toulouse, Lyon, Rennes, Paris
- gsnedders 9y ago
  AFAIK all the Paris lines moving to GoA4 have been done with no compulsory redundancies.
- kelnos 9y ago
  I'd be surprised if the unions representing the train drivers in France were just all "ok, cool, automate away and fire the drivers when you're done". Did they require that drivers be employed in other positions, or receive some sort of training for different jobs? Unions in the US are annoyingly different: most (at least those that I'm even passingly familiar with) seem to have one major goal: keeping the status quo (with regular pay and benefits increases for its members, of course). They generally do not go for "hey, we're going to eliminate your jobs, but we'll compensate you in such a way that you'll continue to be gainfully employed elsewhere".
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - the_mitsuhiko 9y ago
    > I'd be surprised if the unions representing the train drivers in France were just all "ok, cool, automate away and fire the drivers when you're done". Did they require that drivers be employed in other positions, or receive some sort of training for different jobs? Often that topic does not even come up because companies are not firing people to begin with like they do in the US. They just transition into a new role (for instance they could become light rail drivers in the same network where automation is not yet achievable).
    - kelnos 9y ago
      Interesting. Is there that much slack in employment to cover that? I mean, if you automate a transit line, presumably you're displacing dozens of now-former train operators. It would surprise me if they always have productive, useful jobs to move people to in these situations.

masklinn 9y ago

> Union culture can be significant though. Union culture is as antagonistic in France as in the US (for the same reasons that corporations are antagonistic) and it not only has multiple GOA4 metro systems running right now across the country[0], Paris is actually converting existing lines to full automation. All of Germany (which has a much more cooperative union culture) has two GOA4 lines both in Nuremberg, meanwhile Copenhagen Metro (in highly unionised Denmark) was created fully automated back in 2002. I see no evidence that unions have anything to do with it. [0] quite literally: Lille, Toulouse, Lyon, Rennes, Paris

gsnedders 9y ago
AFAIK all the Paris lines moving to GoA4 have been done with no compulsory redundancies.
kelnos 9y ago
I'd be surprised if the unions representing the train drivers in France were just all "ok, cool, automate away and fire the drivers when you're done". Did they require that drivers be employed in other positions, or receive some sort of training for different jobs? Unions in the US are annoyingly different: most (at least those that I'm even passingly familiar with) seem to have one major goal: keeping the status quo (with regular pay and benefits increases for its members, of course). They generally do not go for "hey, we're going to eliminate your jobs, but we'll compensate you in such a way that you'll continue to be gainfully employed elsewhere".
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- the_mitsuhiko 9y ago
  > I'd be surprised if the unions representing the train drivers in France were just all "ok, cool, automate away and fire the drivers when you're done". Did they require that drivers be employed in other positions, or receive some sort of training for different jobs? Often that topic does not even come up because companies are not firing people to begin with like they do in the US. They just transition into a new role (for instance they could become light rail drivers in the same network where automation is not yet achievable).
  - kelnos 9y ago
    Interesting. Is there that much slack in employment to cover that? I mean, if you automate a transit line, presumably you're displacing dozens of now-former train operators. It would surprise me if they always have productive, useful jobs to move people to in these situations.