5 ms·

What in particular would you say is driving the USMC to this approach to innovation, compared to the other branches? Are they simply more exposed to unconventio

by gascan 9y ago

What in particular would you say is driving the USMC to this approach to innovation, compared to the other branches? Are they simply more exposed to unconventional warfare? Is it something about the type of person selected to be a Marine vs another branch? Something unique to their command staff? Etc.

dfsegoat 9y ago
I am not a Marine. But I would venture to guess it has to do with the tide of maintenance & resulting readiness issues the Corps. has historically had to deal with (their budget is tiny compared to USAF/Army), and the demands of running combat deployments non-stop since 9/11/01. Recently, they literally were pulling wings off of F-18s from museums, because several of their combat aircraft set to deploy in +2 weeks to places like Afghanistan and Iraq, were missing wings.
- grkvlt 9y ago
  I'm not convinced about the 'pulling wings off of F-18s from museums' story - you're suggesting that aircraft about to deploy (in two weeks time, no less) had no wings and therefore combat missions ended up being flown with planes using the flight surfaces from museum exhibits? You may be thinking of the following story, when an F/A-18 that flew in the raid against Libya in 1986 needed a part (the hinge for the front left door of the nose wheel landing gear) which was no longer manufactured, and was eventually found on an aircraft on the USS Yorktown museum ship - although it didn't fit. [0] 0. https://breakingdefense.com/2016/03/marines-scrounge-yorktown-museum-f-18-for-spare-parts-how-bad-is-it/ https://breakingdefense.com/2016/03/marines-scrounge-yorktow...
  - dfsegoat 9y ago
    Yep I was mistaken. It seems the article you cited may have been the origin story. What I read, (and it changed in my head over time obviously to the point of perpetuating an urban legend) was from the military times in 2016 - which cites anecdotes that House Armed Services Cmte. Chairman, Mac Thornberry received firsthand [0]. Thanks for correcting me on this. [0] - https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2016/03/30/congressional-failures-just-forced-the-marines-to-raid-a-museum-for-aircraft-parts/ https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2016/03/30/...
    - grkvlt 9y ago
      NP. There's a lot of urban legend style stories about the military (multi thousand dollar hammers, that sort of thing) passed around, both in the US and the UK, and I think it's important that where there are cases of actual incompetence or negligence they get reported, but it's counterproductive to invent things so it's useful to correct any false impressions.
- chiph 9y ago
  Maybe not museums, but they certainly could have gotten some from the Arizona Boneyard.
SkyMarshal 9y ago
For at least the last several decades the USMC has been doctrinally committed to pushing decision making authority and accountability down to the most granular component of the force, the fireteam [1]. It's natural that they extend that doctrine beyond battlefield duties to other areas like combat readiness and innovation as well. [1]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fireteam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fireteam
- gaius 9y ago
  This goes back a few years http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/usmc/strategic_corporal.htm http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/usmc/strategic_corporal....
ISL 9y ago
USMC has long had a culture, at least to this outsider, of adaptive approaches to problem solving.
- phaedrus 9y ago
  As a former Marine, I'd say that is an accurate assessment. "Adapt and overcome" is a motto I heard often.
  - secfirstmd 9y ago
    The Irish Army doesn't have a motto but if it did the most used saying, especially in training is: "Improvise, adapt, overcome"
torstenvl 9y ago
The Marines are doctrinally committed to being expeditionary. The cultural mantra and statutory niche of the Marine Corps is to be able to project American military power anywhere in the world on very short notice. You know what slows that down? Logistics. The Marines have been at the forefront of trying to overcome logistics limitations. The MV-22 Osprey is the perfect example. If you want to deploy anywhere in the world without the lead time to build an airstrip, you need a bird that can fly long distances like an airplane and set down like a helicopter. 3D Printing is the JIT compilation version of materiel production. If we have to set up a base in a remote part of Korea tomorrow, we will not be able to build a logistics train in time to fix tanks and planes and MRAPs. But if we can 3D print whatever parts we need, our on-site logistical capabilities get a huge advantage. Expeditionary Force 21 [PDF]: http://www.mccdc.marines.mil/Portals/172/Docs/MCCDC/Documents/EF21/EF21_Glossy.pdf http://www.mccdc.marines.mil/Portals/172/Docs/MCCDC/Document...
- Retric 9y ago
  The Osprey does not do all that much for Logistics over the first 48 hours, it's main advantage is longer term mobility. An airdrop from a C-130 can drop a tank or just about anything else anywhere on the planet without a runway. The issue is it can't then pick it back up without a runway.
  - andrewflnr 9y ago
    Mobility is part of logistics.
    - Retric 9y ago
      Sure, but mobility after the first 48 hours is a separate problem than being able to project force in the first 48 hours.
  - thetinguy 9y ago
    First of all, the MV-22 does not carry tanks. Second, here's what happens when you try to airdrop a vehicle much lighter than a tank: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjF8ju7YeLI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjF8ju7YeLI Imho it's pretty amusing you're telling someone who clearly has more domain specific knowledge than you that they're wrong.

by gascan 9y ago

dfsegoat 9y ago

I am not a Marine. But I would venture to guess it has to do with the tide of maintenance & resulting readiness issues the Corps. has historically had to deal with (their budget is tiny compared to USAF/Army), and the demands of running combat deployments non-stop since 9/11/01. Recently, they literally were pulling wings off of F-18s from museums, because several of their combat aircraft set to deploy in +2 weeks to places like Afghanistan and Iraq, were missing wings.

grkvlt 9y ago
I'm not convinced about the 'pulling wings off of F-18s from museums' story - you're suggesting that aircraft about to deploy (in two weeks time, no less) had no wings and therefore combat missions ended up being flown with planes using the flight surfaces from museum exhibits? You may be thinking of the following story, when an F/A-18 that flew in the raid against Libya in 1986 needed a part (the hinge for the front left door of the nose wheel landing gear) which was no longer manufactured, and was eventually found on an aircraft on the USS Yorktown museum ship - although it didn't fit. [0] 0. https://breakingdefense.com/2016/03/marines-scrounge-yorktown-museum-f-18-for-spare-parts-how-bad-is-it/ https://breakingdefense.com/2016/03/marines-scrounge-yorktow...
- dfsegoat 9y ago
  Yep I was mistaken. It seems the article you cited may have been the origin story. What I read, (and it changed in my head over time obviously to the point of perpetuating an urban legend) was from the military times in 2016 - which cites anecdotes that House Armed Services Cmte. Chairman, Mac Thornberry received firsthand [0]. Thanks for correcting me on this. [0] - https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2016/03/30/congressional-failures-just-forced-the-marines-to-raid-a-museum-for-aircraft-parts/ https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2016/03/30/...
  - grkvlt 9y ago
    NP. There's a lot of urban legend style stories about the military (multi thousand dollar hammers, that sort of thing) passed around, both in the US and the UK, and I think it's important that where there are cases of actual incompetence or negligence they get reported, but it's counterproductive to invent things so it's useful to correct any false impressions.
chiph 9y ago
Maybe not museums, but they certainly could have gotten some from the Arizona Boneyard.

SkyMarshal 9y ago

For at least the last several decades the USMC has been doctrinally committed to pushing decision making authority and accountability down to the most granular component of the force, the fireteam [1]. It's natural that they extend that doctrine beyond battlefield duties to other areas like combat readiness and innovation as well. [1]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fireteam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fireteam

gaius 9y ago
This goes back a few years http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/usmc/strategic_corporal.htm http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/usmc/strategic_corporal....

ISL 9y ago

USMC has long had a culture, at least to this outsider, of adaptive approaches to problem solving.

phaedrus 9y ago
As a former Marine, I'd say that is an accurate assessment. "Adapt and overcome" is a motto I heard often.
- secfirstmd 9y ago
  The Irish Army doesn't have a motto but if it did the most used saying, especially in training is: "Improvise, adapt, overcome"

torstenvl 9y ago

The Marines are doctrinally committed to being expeditionary. The cultural mantra and statutory niche of the Marine Corps is to be able to project American military power anywhere in the world on very short notice. You know what slows that down? Logistics. The Marines have been at the forefront of trying to overcome logistics limitations. The MV-22 Osprey is the perfect example. If you want to deploy anywhere in the world without the lead time to build an airstrip, you need a bird that can fly long distances like an airplane and set down like a helicopter. 3D Printing is the JIT compilation version of materiel production. If we have to set up a base in a remote part of Korea tomorrow, we will not be able to build a logistics train in time to fix tanks and planes and MRAPs. But if we can 3D print whatever parts we need, our on-site logistical capabilities get a huge advantage. Expeditionary Force 21 [PDF]: http://www.mccdc.marines.mil/Portals/172/Docs/MCCDC/Documents/EF21/EF21_Glossy.pdf http://www.mccdc.marines.mil/Portals/172/Docs/MCCDC/Document...

Retric 9y ago
The Osprey does not do all that much for Logistics over the first 48 hours, it's main advantage is longer term mobility. An airdrop from a C-130 can drop a tank or just about anything else anywhere on the planet without a runway. The issue is it can't then pick it back up without a runway.
- andrewflnr 9y ago
  Mobility is part of logistics.
  - Retric 9y ago
    Sure, but mobility after the first 48 hours is a separate problem than being able to project force in the first 48 hours.
- thetinguy 9y ago
  First of all, the MV-22 does not carry tanks. Second, here's what happens when you try to airdrop a vehicle much lighter than a tank: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjF8ju7YeLI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjF8ju7YeLI Imho it's pretty amusing you're telling someone who clearly has more domain specific knowledge than you that they're wrong.