7 ms·

Risking asking the obvious: What is stopping us from having autonomous subways, considering we are almost gonna have autonomous cars?

joncrane 9y ago
Poor initial implementation combined with fear. The DC Metro used to have a semi-autonomous mode that's been turned off for years since there was a glitch that caused a crash.
- jandrese 9y ago
  The "glitch" was decades of deferred maintenance that left sensors inoperable along the line. Theoretically now that the SafeTrack initiative is complete they should be able to return to semi-autonomous operation, but I doubt it. I'm not expecting the DC Metro to go autonomous anytime soon either. It's a huge jobs program for inner city residents. Basically a commuter tax for a social program.
em3rgent0rdr 9y ago
Because of jobs?
Totoradio 9y ago
It's already a thing, first example that comes to mind is line 14 in the Paris metro: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_M%C3%A9tro_Line_14 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_M%C3%A9tro_Line_14
- sbarre 9y ago
  The Skytrain in Vancouver does not have human conductors either. Although I would assume there are conductors in a control centre somewhere?
  - masklinn 9y ago
    There are no conductors, there's a control room with system overview and links to metros, stations and service personnel. See http://www.ansaldo-sts.com/sites/ansaldosts/files/brochures/copenhagen_metro.pdf http://www.ansaldo-sts.com/sites/ansaldosts/files/brochures/... page 21.
    - d4l3k 9y ago
      Interestingly enough, all transit staff are trained to be conductors in cases when the automated system doesn't work. It recently snowed which incorrectly triggered the "something is on the track" sensors causing the entire system to stop. They just took all the people normally doing other tasks and made them manually drive the trains for a day until the snow melted.
      - masklinn 9y ago
        I didn't know that, that's pretty damn awesome and excellent foresight.
- Rexxar 9y ago
  Line 1 is even more interesting as it was converted from manually driven operation to fully automated operation without without major interruption to passenger traffic. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_M%C3%A9tro_Line_1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_M%C3%A9tro_Line_1)
  - masklinn 9y ago
    And it was considered successful enough that they've started work on converting Line 4. After line 14 was put in service in 1998, RATP actually started drafting plans to convert lines 1, 4, 6, 7, 9 and 13.
t3po7re5 9y ago
DC Metro use to but then there was a major accident that resulted in them reversing the system. They plan to eventually make them driverless in the future.
jstalin 9y ago
Unions.
- the_mitsuhiko 9y ago
  There are countries with way stronger unions and automated trains. I doubt unions are the deciding factor.
  - gsnedders 9y ago
    Union culture can be significant though. From my understanding, in the US I'd expect a union to refuse any form of automation indefinitely; in other countries, they might accept it if the redundant staff are provided training for another job with good employment prospects.
    - masklinn 9y ago
      > Union culture can be significant though. Union culture is as antagonistic in France as in the US (for the same reasons that corporations are antagonistic) and it not only has multiple GOA4 metro systems running right now across the country[0], Paris is actually converting existing lines to full automation. All of Germany (which has a much more cooperative union culture) has two GOA4 lines both in Nuremberg, meanwhile Copenhagen Metro (in highly unionised Denmark) was created fully automated back in 2002. I see no evidence that unions have anything to do with it. [0] quite literally: Lille, Toulouse, Lyon, Rennes, Paris
      - gsnedders 9y ago
        AFAIK all the Paris lines moving to GoA4 have been done with no compulsory redundancies.
      - kelnos 9y ago
        I'd be surprised if the unions representing the train drivers in France were just all "ok, cool, automate away and fire the drivers when you're done". Did they require that drivers be employed in other positions, or receive some sort of training for different jobs? Unions in the US are annoyingly different: most (at least those that I'm even passingly familiar with) seem to have one major goal: keeping the status quo (with regular pay and benefits increases for its members, of course). They generally do not go for "hey, we're going to eliminate your jobs, but we'll compensate you in such a way that you'll continue to be gainfully employed elsewhere".
lflux 9y ago
Nothing. Hong Kong, Singapore, London, Paris, Copenhagen as well all have lines that run in driverless mode. Heck, even SF Muni runs in autonomous mode in the subway, it's only run in manual mode on the streets.
- inferiorhuman 9y ago
  > Heck, even SF Muni runs in autonomous mode in the subway, it's only run in manual mode on the streets. That's a bit of a stretch. Muni and BART use automated train control. SFMTA went with Alcatel/Thales' awful SelTrac system that the Docklands Light Rail uses while BART uses its own monstrosity. Both systems have human operators at all times because neither system is reliable enough to run unattended. SFMTA used to show which modes trains inside the tunnel were running in. They also used to publish detailed daily service reports that revealed just how bad things were. At one point, > 50% of trains were unable to enter the tunnel in auto mode as the VETAG transponders had a roughly 100% failure rate. For many years the trains themselves would destroy the trackside inductive loops as well, periodically disabling the train control system. Instead the MTA chose to sanitize the reports, and eventually stopped publishing the information at all. The great irony is that Muni's train control system was so inefficient that drivers would routinely drop into manual mode upon approach to the last underground system without even so much as a heads up to the dispatchers. And then, in 2009, one of the drivers passed out and ran his train into the train parked at the platform. Instead of requiring drivers to pass a health check like the FAA does for pilots, the MTA simply forbade manual operation in the tunnel. From the pictures, that driver was easily 400 lbs and Muni only cares about drugs and color blindness. Net result: 5-10 minutes got added to each outbound trip. BART, of course, has its own maladies -- if you've ever had to wait for the train to be repositioned before the doors open you know why they still keep their drivers around. At this point, IMO, neither humans nor automation alone can solve the transit problem.
alexbeloi 9y ago
In principal Bart[0] is supposed to be operated almost automatically and the train operator is there for announcements, closing doors and watching the track for hazards. In practice, the operator does a lot of speeding up/down manually. I can't find it now, but I remember reading an article that claimed that Bart trains were operated in manual mode 90% of the time, not sure the reason. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_Area_Rapid_Transit#Automation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_Area_Rapid_Transit#Automat...
- njarboe 9y ago
  Probably because otherwise the operator gets really bored and feels the machine is driving him instead of the other way around.
- inferiorhuman 9y ago
  I doubt BART runs manually 90% of the time. When run manually the speed limit is so much lower you'd know. However BART operators often have to reposition the trains manually within a station and crank the switches manually.
ptaipale 9y ago
There was an automatic light rail to Docklands in London when I last visited. In 1991. Helsinki metro was planning to have automated trains when the western extension opens in 2014. It opened in late 2017, without automation because of technical difficulties. I have a hard time believing there will be much automated traffic on the roads here (with uneven surfaces, unclear markings, snow, and other traffic) before the metro can be automated (in a dedicated tunnel where there is no other traffic, movement is technically only possible on the rails and there is no snow).
- masklinn 9y ago
  Docklands opened in 1987 but is only GOA3 (the train runs automatically but requires a staff member responsible for departure & emergency situations). Port Island Line (Kobe) opened as GOA4 (fully automated) in 1981 followed by Lille Metro in 1983 and Vancouver's SkyTrain in 1985. The US has several GOA4 systems, though they're mostly airport shuttles and people movers (AeroTrain at Dulles, Monorail at Tampa, STS at Tacoma) a few serve actual communities (DPM, Metromover, Morgantown, Las Vegas Monorail). > Helsinki metro was planning to have automated trains when the western extension opens in 2014. It opened in late 2017, without automation because of technical difficulties. Wow, that's a bit ridiculous.
  - gsnedders 9y ago
    > Wow, that's a bit ridiculous. Less than what's happened with the London Underground Sub-Surface Railway, which is now on the third resignalling contract to get them to GoA Level 3.
    - mseebach 9y ago
      And here we are approaching the crux of the issue. Building a new line so it's fully automatic is relatively straightforward. Re-engineering an existing line to make it automatic (without shutting it down for months, which understandably is rarely an option) is like performing open heart surgery on a patient while he is running a marathon.
kalmi10 9y ago
We have that in Hungary. Line 4 in Budapest is fully automated. Initially it was manually operated, then the drivers were just a fallback (or to soothe the nerves..), then they pretty much removed the driver's cabin, and nowadays anyone can stand next to and look through the front window. It's cool. "The line operates using fully automated [..]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_4_(Budapest_Metro) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_4_(Budapest_Metro)
vanjoe 9y ago
Perhaps unions?
bluGill 9y ago
Money. The technology is not hard to create, but it does take a bunch of engineers time and effort to design it all (probably a mix of mechanical and computer work), and then more time to buy the equipment and install it. There is nothing off the shelf, even if some other subway gave them all the design (unlikely), it would still be hundreds of thousands of dollars per train to make it fit the New York trains.
- masklinn 9y ago
  > There is nothing off the shelf, even if some other subway gave them all the design (unlikely) VAL[0] has been a thing since the Lille Metro opened in 1983 and AnsaldoBreda[1] is being deployed all over the world (it's the platform for Honolulu's upcoming HART). [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Véhicule_Automatique_Léger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Véhicule_Automatique_Léger [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AnsaldoBreda_Driverless_Metro https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AnsaldoBreda_Driverless_Metro
- gsnedders 9y ago
  > There is nothing off the shelf, even if some other subway gave them all the design (unlikely), it would still be hundreds of thousands of dollars per train to make it fit the New York trains. What? Alstom, Ansaldo STS, Bombardier, Siemens, and Thales all have off-the-shelf designs that they will happily sell. And I've probably forgotten some here. I realise none of these are American companies, and "Buy American" is often a constraint on acquisitions in the US, but it's fundamentally untrue that there are no off-the-shelf designs. See, e.g., https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications-based_train_control#List https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications-based_train_con... for various systems using various suppliers' products.
  - masklinn 9y ago
    That's the com system, but there are fully automated off-the-shelf systems (com, rolling stock, …). Two examples are Siemens's VAL (Lille, Taipei's Brown, Seoul's U-line, VAL tech has also been used in Lyon's D and Paris's 14 and 1) and Hitachi's AnsaldoBreda Driverless (Copenhagen, Taipei's Yellow, Milan 5, …). The latter is very popular and getting deployed in several places right now: Honolulu, Thessaloniki, Lima 2, Rome C, …
the_mitsuhiko 9y ago
Nothing. Viennas subway has semi autonomous trains since 1960 or so. The driver just presses a “leave station” button after verifying nobody is stuck in the doors.
- lflux 9y ago
  Stockholm metro has this as well but I wouldn't call it "autonomous", it's just a departure button to get the train moving faster. The driver still has to grip the vigilance device after a certain amount of time. According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_U-Bahn#Fifth_expansion_phase_(2018%E2%80%932023):_New_U5_line https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_U-Bahn#Fifth_expansion_... it seems that vienna isn't driverless yet.
  - the_mitsuhiko 9y ago
    In Vienna it's fully automated between stations. The main reason it's not fully automated is because there are no automatically closing doors in the stations. U5 is going to get it though: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBDqq7rwLE0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBDqq7rwLE0 You can quite often see the trains operate fully automatic though when the drivers are changing shifts at the end of the line. The driver typically leaves and locks the train, lets it reverse itself and then the next driver continues: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eyjqS9lvNA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eyjqS9lvNA
iooi 9y ago
I've said it before [1] and I'll say it again, even if I get downvoted to hell again: Unions NYC has some of the strongest unions in the country. Everything from hotels to the MTA are plagued by really, really strong unions that only care about their interests -- leaving the city with a shameful transit system, in this case. Unions make up nearly 25% of workers in NYC[2], that's more than the double the national average. The corruption is rampant[3] and the city is literally powerless against them[4]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14948921 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14948921 [2] http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article/20170910/BLOGS01/170909898/labor-unions-are-strong-in-new-york-for-now-a-supreme-court-ruling-could-cut-their-funding http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article/20170910/BLOGS01/170909... [3] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-construction-costs.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-... [4] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/16/nyregion/carpenters-nyc-union-contract-lawsuit.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/16/nyregion/carpenters-nyc-u...
- soperj 9y ago
  So really the answer isn't unions. It's corruption. Unions work in many places in the world.
  - cynicalkane 9y ago
    Per the linked articles, unions are intertwined with the corruption. This wouldn’t be the case if unions were politically touchable. As long as there enough voters who will always say, “unions aren’t the problem”, they will be part of the problem. They get money for nothing and nobody blames them.
    - afterburner 9y ago
      Unions get money to fund lawyers to protect their members, and to be able to go on strike. This protection and feedback is essential for preventing companies from taking advantage of their employees. The increasing inequality in the US can in large part be attributed to corporations winning the war against Unions. Corporations have been ruthless towards this end, including funding think-tanks that gaslight Americans.
kelvin0 9y ago
Never underestimate the power of unions. They can make or break a technology. Automated driver less subway cars create a precedent which can make unions feel threatened. Of course the reality of it is more complicated, but they are a powerful force (for better or worse).
rayiner 9y ago
Unions.
paulie_a 9y ago
> considering we are almost gonna have autonomous cars 10-20 years from now isn't exactly "almost"
notyourday 9y ago
L (Manhattan/Brooklyn) is automated. The drive is there to simply signal "I'm here" to automated system. The second person on is there to mumble something that is difficult to anyone understand.
danieltillett 9y ago
Everyone is blaming unions, but it is really culture. NYC is very corrupt, has been for a very long time (part of its charm), and this corruption is at all level of society. It just happens that the effects of corruption at the MTA is very visible.
Kelbit 9y ago
Vancouver SkyTrain opened in 1985 and was fully automated from day one. The rolling stock used on the majority of the system (Bombardier ART) was specifically designed for driverless operation. Interestingly, at the time the Vancouver SkyTrain was undergoing construction, the same tech was being installed in Toronto for the Scarborough rapid transit line. The transit union in Toronto opposed automation, so the trains had to be specially modified to add operator cabins so the trains could be driven manually. Vancouver was able to get away with it because the system was a greenfield project, there was no union of subway workers around already to oppose automating the trains.
- jandrese 9y ago
  The Las Vegas monorail is entirely automated, but that doesn't stop it from being horrendously expensive and not terribly useful.

joncrane 9y ago

Poor initial implementation combined with fear. The DC Metro used to have a semi-autonomous mode that's been turned off for years since there was a glitch that caused a crash.

jandrese 9y ago
The "glitch" was decades of deferred maintenance that left sensors inoperable along the line. Theoretically now that the SafeTrack initiative is complete they should be able to return to semi-autonomous operation, but I doubt it. I'm not expecting the DC Metro to go autonomous anytime soon either. It's a huge jobs program for inner city residents. Basically a commuter tax for a social program.

em3rgent0rdr 9y ago

Because of jobs?

Totoradio 9y ago

It's already a thing, first example that comes to mind is line 14 in the Paris metro: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_M%C3%A9tro_Line_14 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_M%C3%A9tro_Line_14

sbarre 9y ago
The Skytrain in Vancouver does not have human conductors either. Although I would assume there are conductors in a control centre somewhere?
- masklinn 9y ago
  There are no conductors, there's a control room with system overview and links to metros, stations and service personnel. See http://www.ansaldo-sts.com/sites/ansaldosts/files/brochures/copenhagen_metro.pdf http://www.ansaldo-sts.com/sites/ansaldosts/files/brochures/... page 21.
  - d4l3k 9y ago
    Interestingly enough, all transit staff are trained to be conductors in cases when the automated system doesn't work. It recently snowed which incorrectly triggered the "something is on the track" sensors causing the entire system to stop. They just took all the people normally doing other tasks and made them manually drive the trains for a day until the snow melted.
    - masklinn 9y ago
      I didn't know that, that's pretty damn awesome and excellent foresight.
Rexxar 9y ago
Line 1 is even more interesting as it was converted from manually driven operation to fully automated operation without without major interruption to passenger traffic. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_M%C3%A9tro_Line_1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_M%C3%A9tro_Line_1)
- masklinn 9y ago
  And it was considered successful enough that they've started work on converting Line 4. After line 14 was put in service in 1998, RATP actually started drafting plans to convert lines 1, 4, 6, 7, 9 and 13.

t3po7re5 9y ago

DC Metro use to but then there was a major accident that resulted in them reversing the system. They plan to eventually make them driverless in the future.

jstalin 9y ago

Unions.

the_mitsuhiko 9y ago
There are countries with way stronger unions and automated trains. I doubt unions are the deciding factor.
- gsnedders 9y ago
  Union culture can be significant though. From my understanding, in the US I'd expect a union to refuse any form of automation indefinitely; in other countries, they might accept it if the redundant staff are provided training for another job with good employment prospects.
  - masklinn 9y ago
    > Union culture can be significant though. Union culture is as antagonistic in France as in the US (for the same reasons that corporations are antagonistic) and it not only has multiple GOA4 metro systems running right now across the country[0], Paris is actually converting existing lines to full automation. All of Germany (which has a much more cooperative union culture) has two GOA4 lines both in Nuremberg, meanwhile Copenhagen Metro (in highly unionised Denmark) was created fully automated back in 2002. I see no evidence that unions have anything to do with it. [0] quite literally: Lille, Toulouse, Lyon, Rennes, Paris
    - gsnedders 9y ago
      AFAIK all the Paris lines moving to GoA4 have been done with no compulsory redundancies.
    - kelnos 9y ago
      I'd be surprised if the unions representing the train drivers in France were just all "ok, cool, automate away and fire the drivers when you're done". Did they require that drivers be employed in other positions, or receive some sort of training for different jobs? Unions in the US are annoyingly different: most (at least those that I'm even passingly familiar with) seem to have one major goal: keeping the status quo (with regular pay and benefits increases for its members, of course). They generally do not go for "hey, we're going to eliminate your jobs, but we'll compensate you in such a way that you'll continue to be gainfully employed elsewhere".

lflux 9y ago

Nothing. Hong Kong, Singapore, London, Paris, Copenhagen as well all have lines that run in driverless mode. Heck, even SF Muni runs in autonomous mode in the subway, it's only run in manual mode on the streets.

inferiorhuman 9y ago
> Heck, even SF Muni runs in autonomous mode in the subway, it's only run in manual mode on the streets. That's a bit of a stretch. Muni and BART use automated train control. SFMTA went with Alcatel/Thales' awful SelTrac system that the Docklands Light Rail uses while BART uses its own monstrosity. Both systems have human operators at all times because neither system is reliable enough to run unattended. SFMTA used to show which modes trains inside the tunnel were running in. They also used to publish detailed daily service reports that revealed just how bad things were. At one point, > 50% of trains were unable to enter the tunnel in auto mode as the VETAG transponders had a roughly 100% failure rate. For many years the trains themselves would destroy the trackside inductive loops as well, periodically disabling the train control system. Instead the MTA chose to sanitize the reports, and eventually stopped publishing the information at all. The great irony is that Muni's train control system was so inefficient that drivers would routinely drop into manual mode upon approach to the last underground system without even so much as a heads up to the dispatchers. And then, in 2009, one of the drivers passed out and ran his train into the train parked at the platform. Instead of requiring drivers to pass a health check like the FAA does for pilots, the MTA simply forbade manual operation in the tunnel. From the pictures, that driver was easily 400 lbs and Muni only cares about drugs and color blindness. Net result: 5-10 minutes got added to each outbound trip. BART, of course, has its own maladies -- if you've ever had to wait for the train to be repositioned before the doors open you know why they still keep their drivers around. At this point, IMO, neither humans nor automation alone can solve the transit problem.

alexbeloi 9y ago

In principal Bart[0] is supposed to be operated almost automatically and the train operator is there for announcements, closing doors and watching the track for hazards. In practice, the operator does a lot of speeding up/down manually. I can't find it now, but I remember reading an article that claimed that Bart trains were operated in manual mode 90% of the time, not sure the reason. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_Area_Rapid_Transit#Automation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_Area_Rapid_Transit#Automat...

njarboe 9y ago
Probably because otherwise the operator gets really bored and feels the machine is driving him instead of the other way around.
inferiorhuman 9y ago
I doubt BART runs manually 90% of the time. When run manually the speed limit is so much lower you'd know. However BART operators often have to reposition the trains manually within a station and crank the switches manually.

ptaipale 9y ago

There was an automatic light rail to Docklands in London when I last visited. In 1991. Helsinki metro was planning to have automated trains when the western extension opens in 2014. It opened in late 2017, without automation because of technical difficulties. I have a hard time believing there will be much automated traffic on the roads here (with uneven surfaces, unclear markings, snow, and other traffic) before the metro can be automated (in a dedicated tunnel where there is no other traffic, movement is technically only possible on the rails and there is no snow).

masklinn 9y ago
Docklands opened in 1987 but is only GOA3 (the train runs automatically but requires a staff member responsible for departure & emergency situations). Port Island Line (Kobe) opened as GOA4 (fully automated) in 1981 followed by Lille Metro in 1983 and Vancouver's SkyTrain in 1985. The US has several GOA4 systems, though they're mostly airport shuttles and people movers (AeroTrain at Dulles, Monorail at Tampa, STS at Tacoma) a few serve actual communities (DPM, Metromover, Morgantown, Las Vegas Monorail). > Helsinki metro was planning to have automated trains when the western extension opens in 2014. It opened in late 2017, without automation because of technical difficulties. Wow, that's a bit ridiculous.
- gsnedders 9y ago
  > Wow, that's a bit ridiculous. Less than what's happened with the London Underground Sub-Surface Railway, which is now on the third resignalling contract to get them to GoA Level 3.
  - mseebach 9y ago
    And here we are approaching the crux of the issue. Building a new line so it's fully automatic is relatively straightforward. Re-engineering an existing line to make it automatic (without shutting it down for months, which understandably is rarely an option) is like performing open heart surgery on a patient while he is running a marathon.

kalmi10 9y ago

We have that in Hungary. Line 4 in Budapest is fully automated. Initially it was manually operated, then the drivers were just a fallback (or to soothe the nerves..), then they pretty much removed the driver's cabin, and nowadays anyone can stand next to and look through the front window. It's cool. "The line operates using fully automated [..]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_4_(Budapest_Metro) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_4_(Budapest_Metro)

vanjoe 9y ago

Perhaps unions?

bluGill 9y ago

Money. The technology is not hard to create, but it does take a bunch of engineers time and effort to design it all (probably a mix of mechanical and computer work), and then more time to buy the equipment and install it. There is nothing off the shelf, even if some other subway gave them all the design (unlikely), it would still be hundreds of thousands of dollars per train to make it fit the New York trains.

masklinn 9y ago
> There is nothing off the shelf, even if some other subway gave them all the design (unlikely) VAL[0] has been a thing since the Lille Metro opened in 1983 and AnsaldoBreda[1] is being deployed all over the world (it's the platform for Honolulu's upcoming HART). [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Véhicule_Automatique_Léger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Véhicule_Automatique_Léger [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AnsaldoBreda_Driverless_Metro https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AnsaldoBreda_Driverless_Metro
gsnedders 9y ago
> There is nothing off the shelf, even if some other subway gave them all the design (unlikely), it would still be hundreds of thousands of dollars per train to make it fit the New York trains. What? Alstom, Ansaldo STS, Bombardier, Siemens, and Thales all have off-the-shelf designs that they will happily sell. And I've probably forgotten some here. I realise none of these are American companies, and "Buy American" is often a constraint on acquisitions in the US, but it's fundamentally untrue that there are no off-the-shelf designs. See, e.g., https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications-based_train_control#List https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications-based_train_con... for various systems using various suppliers' products.
- masklinn 9y ago
  That's the com system, but there are fully automated off-the-shelf systems (com, rolling stock, …). Two examples are Siemens's VAL (Lille, Taipei's Brown, Seoul's U-line, VAL tech has also been used in Lyon's D and Paris's 14 and 1) and Hitachi's AnsaldoBreda Driverless (Copenhagen, Taipei's Yellow, Milan 5, …). The latter is very popular and getting deployed in several places right now: Honolulu, Thessaloniki, Lima 2, Rome C, …

the_mitsuhiko 9y ago

Nothing. Viennas subway has semi autonomous trains since 1960 or so. The driver just presses a “leave station” button after verifying nobody is stuck in the doors.

lflux 9y ago
Stockholm metro has this as well but I wouldn't call it "autonomous", it's just a departure button to get the train moving faster. The driver still has to grip the vigilance device after a certain amount of time. According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_U-Bahn#Fifth_expansion_phase_(2018%E2%80%932023):_New_U5_line https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_U-Bahn#Fifth_expansion_... it seems that vienna isn't driverless yet.
- the_mitsuhiko 9y ago
  In Vienna it's fully automated between stations. The main reason it's not fully automated is because there are no automatically closing doors in the stations. U5 is going to get it though: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBDqq7rwLE0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBDqq7rwLE0 You can quite often see the trains operate fully automatic though when the drivers are changing shifts at the end of the line. The driver typically leaves and locks the train, lets it reverse itself and then the next driver continues: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eyjqS9lvNA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eyjqS9lvNA

iooi 9y ago

I've said it before [1] and I'll say it again, even if I get downvoted to hell again: Unions NYC has some of the strongest unions in the country. Everything from hotels to the MTA are plagued by really, really strong unions that only care about their interests -- leaving the city with a shameful transit system, in this case. Unions make up nearly 25% of workers in NYC[2], that's more than the double the national average. The corruption is rampant[3] and the city is literally powerless against them[4]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14948921 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14948921 [2] http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article/20170910/BLOGS01/170909898/labor-unions-are-strong-in-new-york-for-now-a-supreme-court-ruling-could-cut-their-funding http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article/20170910/BLOGS01/170909... [3] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-construction-costs.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-... [4] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/16/nyregion/carpenters-nyc-union-contract-lawsuit.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/16/nyregion/carpenters-nyc-u...

soperj 9y ago
So really the answer isn't unions. It's corruption. Unions work in many places in the world.
- cynicalkane 9y ago
  Per the linked articles, unions are intertwined with the corruption. This wouldn’t be the case if unions were politically touchable. As long as there enough voters who will always say, “unions aren’t the problem”, they will be part of the problem. They get money for nothing and nobody blames them.
  - afterburner 9y ago
    Unions get money to fund lawyers to protect their members, and to be able to go on strike. This protection and feedback is essential for preventing companies from taking advantage of their employees. The increasing inequality in the US can in large part be attributed to corporations winning the war against Unions. Corporations have been ruthless towards this end, including funding think-tanks that gaslight Americans.

kelvin0 9y ago

Never underestimate the power of unions. They can make or break a technology. Automated driver less subway cars create a precedent which can make unions feel threatened. Of course the reality of it is more complicated, but they are a powerful force (for better or worse).

rayiner 9y ago

Unions.

paulie_a 9y ago

> considering we are almost gonna have autonomous cars 10-20 years from now isn't exactly "almost"

notyourday 9y ago

L (Manhattan/Brooklyn) is automated. The drive is there to simply signal "I'm here" to automated system. The second person on is there to mumble something that is difficult to anyone understand.

danieltillett 9y ago

Everyone is blaming unions, but it is really culture. NYC is very corrupt, has been for a very long time (part of its charm), and this corruption is at all level of society. It just happens that the effects of corruption at the MTA is very visible.

Kelbit 9y ago

Vancouver SkyTrain opened in 1985 and was fully automated from day one. The rolling stock used on the majority of the system (Bombardier ART) was specifically designed for driverless operation. Interestingly, at the time the Vancouver SkyTrain was undergoing construction, the same tech was being installed in Toronto for the Scarborough rapid transit line. The transit union in Toronto opposed automation, so the trains had to be specially modified to add operator cabins so the trains could be driven manually. Vancouver was able to get away with it because the system was a greenfield project, there was no union of subway workers around already to oppose automating the trains.

jandrese 9y ago
The Las Vegas monorail is entirely automated, but that doesn't stop it from being horrendously expensive and not terribly useful.