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So, in order to prevent fraud, companies like Best Buy contract out to companies like Retail Equation to evaluate (and deny) returns. While I can appreciate w

by gknoy 9y ago

So, in order to prevent fraud, companies like Best Buy contract out to companies like Retail Equation to evaluate (and deny) returns. While I can appreciate why they feel it's necessary, this seems like the kind of thing that credit card chargebacks were made to combat.

larrik 9y ago
Exactly, I would expect this to be a 100% legit chargeback case, which is going to hurt them in the long run.
- ben509 9y ago
  From their policy: https://www.bestbuy.com/site/help-topics/return-exchange-policy/pcmcat260800050014.c?id=pcmcat260800050014 https://www.bestbuy.com/site/help-topics/return-exchange-pol... "Like many retailers, we use a third party to help prevent losses by detecting improper returns, and, except where prohibited, require a valid ID for all store returns that lack proof of purchase. Reimbursements on returns lacking proof of purchase may be denied or limited and state sales tax and fees will not be reimbursed." And the Visa guidelines for chargebacks, page 28 lists the reason codes: https://usa.visa.com/dam/VCOM/download/merchants/chargeback-management-guidelines-for-visa-merchants.pdf https://usa.visa.com/dam/VCOM/download/merchants/chargeback-... My read puts Best Buy on solid footing here. If you're just returning it because you're unsatisfied, Visa doesn't seem to consider that valid for a chargeback. If it's defective and you have proof of purchase, you had enough evidence that BB would accept the return.
  - cjworden 9y ago
    The last bullet point of that section states: "The cardholder claims that the terms of the sale were misrepresented by the merchant". It also states in their return policy disclosure section: "For card-present transactions, Visa will accept that proper disclosure has occurred before a transaction is completed if the following (or similar) disclosure statements are legibly printed on the face of the transaction receipt near the cardholder signature area or in an area easily seen by the cardholder" I'd argue that unless the receipt also mentions Best Buy's use of a third party to potentially deny a return, they have failed to properly disclose their return policy, making a valid claim that Best Buy misrepresented their terms of sale.
  - gknoy 9y ago
    Wow, that document is really informative. Thanks for sharing that. Great point about not-liking-it being an insufficient threshold for returns. If I were blocked from returning things due to returning, say, a camera or a trio of phone cases that weren't the right ones, and then later had a defective washing machine or monitor, it seems like Code 53 (Not as Described or Defective Merchandise) would be a valid reason for a return, though. But, as others have said ... this seems like a compelling reason not to even be a customer.
  - larrik 9y ago
    "Not as Described" generally covers "unsatisfied". The return policy being not as described may even qualify. Visa tends to side with the cardholder on chargebacks more than is probably fair, too.
  - 15155 9y ago
    > and state sales tax and fees will not be reimbursed Does this imply they just pocket the sales tax or receive it as a refund in some way?
    - gruez 9y ago
      Not an accountant, but my understanding is that the retailer is collecting the tax on behalf of the state. Thus if they're explicitly stating they're not refunding the sales tax, they have to give it to the state, because those funds weren't theirs to begin with.
      - gefh 9y ago
        But if they accept the return, there is now no sales tax due to the state? Customer should get 100% back.
        bluGill 9y ago
        They have no way of knowing WHAT state. You might have bought the widget in a different state with lower sales tax.
        FireBeyond 9y ago
        Yeah, that's an odd one. I bought a Christmas gift for a family member at Toys R Us in King County WA and exchanged it in another county. They refunded me 12c for the difference in sales tax between counties.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - saberworks 9y ago
    It's really interesting that their web site says you only need to show ID if you don't have proof of purchase (and it's only in the fine print at the bottom, the top indicates you need it in any case). I recently had to return a defective router ($350) and the receipt said I needed ID to return it. Of course, you don't get the receipt until after you purchase the item otherwise I would have just ordered the router from Amazon. Anyway, I did not want to show an ID, I had my receipt, I had only bought this thing a few days prior, it was broken, and I didn't want my driver's license in yet another set of databases just waiting to be hacked. However, the customer service person was super nice and didn't even ask me for my ID.
  - mindslight 9y ago
    They would be on shaky ground with credit cards, which is why these terms state they only apply when "proof of purchase" is lacking - a CC purchase has intrinsic proof of purchase. Where this surveillance system has become a major pain in my ass is returns over 90 days at Home Depot. The last period I had intensive HD purchases, I could count on returning stuff [0] late that I'd rather not stock, eating the sales tax, and then spending the store credit. Now it's be sure to return within 90 days or plan on keeping it to not end up flagged. Also, I have personally stuck black tape [1] over the serial number and the barcodes on my drivers' license. When asked to show ID, this lets me exercise judgment about whether the rarer bits are revealed. This is especially handy at unknown liquor stores where the cashier will not have the courtesy to even ask before swiping your license in an electronic reader, backhauling it into the surveillance matrix. [0] Unopened, new condition, completely resalable. [1] Sharpie-colored masking tape. Electrical tape tends to be transparent to IR!
    - WrtCdEvrydy 9y ago
      You can just demag it
    - sjruckle 9y ago
      Not to detract from your overall point, but electrical tape isn't transparent to IR. Quite the opposite, in fact. It doesn't matter though, because the scanners don't use IR. They use a red laser which is in the visible spectrum. Any tape that visibly blocks the barcode will work.
      - mindslight 9y ago
        Well then, I must have been unlucky with the brand I attempted to use as a flag for an opto interrupter - it definitely passed enough IR for the thing to not trip. And yeah, red lasers are quite common. But that doesn't rule out the possibility of a reader using IR - my experience with the opto left me paranoid on the matter.
        sjruckle 9y ago
  - Spooky23 9y ago
    Purchases made within 50 miles of your home are always chargeback eligible.
  - tbyehl 9y ago
    Amex and Mastercard provide return protection for items up to a few hundred dollars. Many Visa issuers offer it as well.
astura 9y ago
Many credit cards come with return protection, so if the retailer won't accept a return you can file a return protection claim. I did that once before with AMEX: https://www.americanexpress.com/us/credit-cards/features-benefits/policies/return-protection-terms.html https://www.americanexpress.com/us/credit-cards/features-ben...

by gknoy 9y ago

larrik 9y ago

Exactly, I would expect this to be a 100% legit chargeback case, which is going to hurt them in the long run.

ben509 9y ago
From their policy: https://www.bestbuy.com/site/help-topics/return-exchange-policy/pcmcat260800050014.c?id=pcmcat260800050014 https://www.bestbuy.com/site/help-topics/return-exchange-pol... "Like many retailers, we use a third party to help prevent losses by detecting improper returns, and, except where prohibited, require a valid ID for all store returns that lack proof of purchase. Reimbursements on returns lacking proof of purchase may be denied or limited and state sales tax and fees will not be reimbursed." And the Visa guidelines for chargebacks, page 28 lists the reason codes: https://usa.visa.com/dam/VCOM/download/merchants/chargeback-management-guidelines-for-visa-merchants.pdf https://usa.visa.com/dam/VCOM/download/merchants/chargeback-... My read puts Best Buy on solid footing here. If you're just returning it because you're unsatisfied, Visa doesn't seem to consider that valid for a chargeback. If it's defective and you have proof of purchase, you had enough evidence that BB would accept the return.
- cjworden 9y ago
  The last bullet point of that section states: "The cardholder claims that the terms of the sale were misrepresented by the merchant". It also states in their return policy disclosure section: "For card-present transactions, Visa will accept that proper disclosure has occurred before a transaction is completed if the following (or similar) disclosure statements are legibly printed on the face of the transaction receipt near the cardholder signature area or in an area easily seen by the cardholder" I'd argue that unless the receipt also mentions Best Buy's use of a third party to potentially deny a return, they have failed to properly disclose their return policy, making a valid claim that Best Buy misrepresented their terms of sale.
- gknoy 9y ago
  Wow, that document is really informative. Thanks for sharing that. Great point about not-liking-it being an insufficient threshold for returns. If I were blocked from returning things due to returning, say, a camera or a trio of phone cases that weren't the right ones, and then later had a defective washing machine or monitor, it seems like Code 53 (Not as Described or Defective Merchandise) would be a valid reason for a return, though. But, as others have said ... this seems like a compelling reason not to even be a customer.
- larrik 9y ago
  "Not as Described" generally covers "unsatisfied". The return policy being not as described may even qualify. Visa tends to side with the cardholder on chargebacks more than is probably fair, too.
- 15155 9y ago
  > and state sales tax and fees will not be reimbursed Does this imply they just pocket the sales tax or receive it as a refund in some way?
  - gruez 9y ago
    Not an accountant, but my understanding is that the retailer is collecting the tax on behalf of the state. Thus if they're explicitly stating they're not refunding the sales tax, they have to give it to the state, because those funds weren't theirs to begin with.
    - gefh 9y ago
      But if they accept the return, there is now no sales tax due to the state? Customer should get 100% back.
      - bluGill 9y ago
        They have no way of knowing WHAT state. You might have bought the widget in a different state with lower sales tax.
        FireBeyond 9y ago
        Yeah, that's an odd one. I bought a Christmas gift for a family member at Toys R Us in King County WA and exchanged it in another county. They refunded me 12c for the difference in sales tax between counties.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- saberworks 9y ago
  It's really interesting that their web site says you only need to show ID if you don't have proof of purchase (and it's only in the fine print at the bottom, the top indicates you need it in any case). I recently had to return a defective router ($350) and the receipt said I needed ID to return it. Of course, you don't get the receipt until after you purchase the item otherwise I would have just ordered the router from Amazon. Anyway, I did not want to show an ID, I had my receipt, I had only bought this thing a few days prior, it was broken, and I didn't want my driver's license in yet another set of databases just waiting to be hacked. However, the customer service person was super nice and didn't even ask me for my ID.
- mindslight 9y ago
  They would be on shaky ground with credit cards, which is why these terms state they only apply when "proof of purchase" is lacking - a CC purchase has intrinsic proof of purchase. Where this surveillance system has become a major pain in my ass is returns over 90 days at Home Depot. The last period I had intensive HD purchases, I could count on returning stuff [0] late that I'd rather not stock, eating the sales tax, and then spending the store credit. Now it's be sure to return within 90 days or plan on keeping it to not end up flagged. Also, I have personally stuck black tape [1] over the serial number and the barcodes on my drivers' license. When asked to show ID, this lets me exercise judgment about whether the rarer bits are revealed. This is especially handy at unknown liquor stores where the cashier will not have the courtesy to even ask before swiping your license in an electronic reader, backhauling it into the surveillance matrix. [0] Unopened, new condition, completely resalable. [1] Sharpie-colored masking tape. Electrical tape tends to be transparent to IR!
  - WrtCdEvrydy 9y ago
    You can just demag it
  - sjruckle 9y ago
    Not to detract from your overall point, but electrical tape isn't transparent to IR. Quite the opposite, in fact. It doesn't matter though, because the scanners don't use IR. They use a red laser which is in the visible spectrum. Any tape that visibly blocks the barcode will work.
    - mindslight 9y ago
      Well then, I must have been unlucky with the brand I attempted to use as a flag for an opto interrupter - it definitely passed enough IR for the thing to not trip. And yeah, red lasers are quite common. But that doesn't rule out the possibility of a reader using IR - my experience with the opto left me paranoid on the matter.
      - sjruckle 9y ago
- Spooky23 9y ago
  Purchases made within 50 miles of your home are always chargeback eligible.
- tbyehl 9y ago
  Amex and Mastercard provide return protection for items up to a few hundred dollars. Many Visa issuers offer it as well.

astura 9y ago

Many credit cards come with return protection, so if the retailer won't accept a return you can file a return protection claim. I did that once before with AMEX: https://www.americanexpress.com/us/credit-cards/features-benefits/policies/return-protection-terms.html https://www.americanexpress.com/us/credit-cards/features-ben...