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The inevitable result of illegal activity going unpunished: normalization. The Obama administration had eight years to do something about this and instead deci

by apo 9y ago

The inevitable result of illegal activity going unpunished: normalization. The Obama administration had eight years to do something about this and instead decided turn the other way. All we got was a mealy-mouthed admission that "we tortured some folks."

fein 9y ago
Just as well: > Her then-boss Jose Rodriguez, the CIA’s director of operations for counterterrorism, signed off on the order. But of course all the blame lies on Haspel...
- gamblor956 9y ago
  She ran the facility and issued the order to destroy the evidence of legal violations. The fact that her boss did not rescind that order doesn't change her complicity.
croon 9y ago
It's impressive that we've fallen so low that we're blaming the Obama administration for not fixing what the Bush administration did. I see it as normalization of the concept that you can't expect any rational action whatsoever from the GOP anymore. Edit: Reading from comments, I should clarify. I totally agree with OP, I just find it incredibly sad.
- Sone7 9y ago
  >It's impressive that we've fallen so low that we're blaming the Obama administration for not fixing what the Bush administration did. Why The Fuck shouldn't we, he campaigned on ending that shit. His similar actions on the banking crisis continue to have horrific consequences. Who gives a fuck about the GOP, we know they're nutso - Obama pretended to be sane though. Obama is also directly responsible for the DNC owing so much money that they were forced to sign a deal with Hillary before the nominations even started.
  - MagnumOpus 9y ago
    > Who gives a fuck about the GOP, we know they're nutso Given that they are running the government, congress, the CIA and everything else besides, a lot of people care - and maybe you should too?
    - Sone7 9y ago
      My point was that if you were expecting the GOP to end torture you're a fucking moron. Obama, on the other hand, was full of fiery speeches during his campaign about ending torture. What are you, implying I don't care that crazy people are running the country? Feck off ya mook.
  - unclebucknasty 9y ago
    Obama is not in office and the election is over. Perhaps you should consider caring about the "nutso" GOP, as their hold on power is the current reality.
    - Sone7 9y ago
      My point was that if you were expecting the GOP to end torture you're a fucking moron. Obama, on the other hand, was full of fiery speeches during his campaign about ending torture. What are you, implying I don't care that crazy people are running the country? Feck off ya mook.
      - unclebucknasty 9y ago
        Judging from this and your other recent comments, you seem to be imploding. Anyone can have a bad day(s), and I think it's worthwhile to recognize that humanness and be willing to extend grace. Still, that doesn't mean I need to go there with you. Good luck.
- wallace_f 9y ago
  Remember when he said he would protect whistle blowers? Anyways, Obama's targeted killing doc[1] actually shows the deep state constitutional abuses and extrajudicial killings continued to develop and evolve under his watch. Whether he is really in control of that, or not, is up for debate. Eisenhower and JFK warned us that these unelected powers were becoming too powerful. 1-https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/02/obama-targeted-killing-white-paper-drone-strikes/ https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/02/obama-targeted-...
- kirse 9y ago
  Obama authorized 10x the number of drone strikes as Bush that killed over 391+ civilians while he was in office, and he did it on his own volition. Ultimately any president has to make hard life-altering decisions, so lets cut out the left vs. right nonsense. Go ahead, read the article, don't let the facts hit you on the way out. https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2016/01/12/reflecting-on-obamas-presidency/obamas-embrace-of-drone-strikes-will-be-a-lasting-legacy https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2016/01/12/reflecting-...
  - rvo 9y ago
    Obama is also I think one of very few presidents who explicitly targeted and killed American natural born citizen. Not accidentally, but actually targeted. Didn't even bother hiding it. But I agree with the original point, GOP did start this mess on the lie of weapons of mass destruction.
    - shams93 9y ago
      Well you go back to 911 itself and the government involvement with Osama Bin Laden going back to the 1980s, go back to the CIA making my childhood incredibly dangerous by dumping incredible amounts of guns and drugs into cities such as Los Angeles. When do the American people get to tell the CIA "you're fired!"
      - rvo 9y ago
        Those were massive fups. That is very different from listing the name of an American on a "kill list" and ordering a drone strike. Judge, jury and executioner. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki
    - davvolun 9y ago
      Maybe I'm just playing devil's advocate, but is what Obama did significantly different from Union soldiers under Lincoln's orders during the Civil War? The form of warfare has changed dramatically, but wouldn't that be something of a parallel? P.S. I don't want to sound like an apologist regarding Obama's actions here. My personal feelings are that he was largely better than Bush, but not without fault.
- apo 9y ago
  This shouldn't be a partisan issue. I'm talking about the disintegration of the rule of law. The new Commander in Chief failed to hold those under his command accountable for their immoral, illegal acts that put our democracy at risk. In doing so, he set a precedent that will last for generations.
- yAnonymous 9y ago
  Everybody knew Bush was a tool and there were little expectations. Obama, on the other hand, was branded as the good guy. He did very little to deserve that though. People were blinded by his eloquence, but he was a huge disappointment as a president. I mean, if the next president after you is a choice between Trump and Hillary Clinton, you definitely fucked up and set the standards low.
- jack6e 9y ago
  And this is why we have fallen so far. Partisan blame is fine for the campaign trail, but as soon as the president takes office he becomes the adult and the responsibility for starting, continuing, or stopping activities falls on him and his administration. Bush oversaw extra-legal interrogation methods. Obama oversaw a massive increase in extra-legal assassinations by drone. Low-minded citizens can get trapped in the game by getting angry about "the other party" and its actions, or they can recognize that administrations and congressmen in both parties blame the other side for cover while simultaneously building off its precedents to expand their own power.
- wpietri 9y ago
  Yeah. I'm so tired of this line of reasoning. "The torture happened during the Bush administration and she was put in charge of the CIA during the Trump administration, so obviously we'd better blame the black guy for this." Yes, I too would have liked it if Obama did more on this. But I am not convinced that he did less than he politically could. As is apparently easy to forget, the US right was at his throat for years. A Republican Congressman went on TV to talk about how Obama threatened America's security by... wearing a tan suit. [1] The notion that they would have gotten behind a sustained investigation of the criminality of the Bush years strikes me as absurdly optimistic. [1] http://www.chicagotribune.com/81220218-157.html http://www.chicagotribune.com/81220218-157.html
- rdtsc 9y ago
  > we've fallen so low that we're blaming the Obama administration for not fixing what the Bush administration At least nobody gave Bush a Nobel Peace Prize. Obama had filled people with hopes and dream and in 8 years did nothing. Just his last year in power he dropped over 20000 bombs in countries we were not even at war with. Speaking of torture, Guantanamo is still open, he could have closed that. In other words expectation were different for Obama so pointing out his failures is also expected vis-a-vis those expectations.
  - gamblor956 9y ago
    Obama did try to shut down Guantanamo. Congress passed a law preventing Obama from closing Guantanamo.
    - rdtsc 9y ago
      Shouldn't have promised it then. Apri 2007: "As President, I will close Guantanamo, reject the Military Commissions Act and adhere to the Geneva Conventions. Our Constitution and our Uniform Code of Military Justice provide a framework for dealing with the terrorists." There was nothing there about "if Congress lets me and activist judges don't impede my progress".
      - gamblor956 9y ago
        Obama did shut down Guantanamo to new detainees. Congress wouldn't let him close the facility. He spent the remainder of his term releasing prisoners, trying prisoners, and/or transferring them to other facilities, all pursuant to the UCMJ. Unlike some presidents, Obama tried to follow the rule of law. He achieved 90% what he promised on Guantanamo. Are you really quivering over the last 10%?
        rdtsc 9y ago
        > Are you really quivering over the last 10%? Yes because it is still open. You don't lock a prisoner without trial only 10% he is either locked up for decades and tortured or he isn't.
JustAnotherPat 9y ago
This is an absolute disaster for the Obama Administration. A complete stain on Barack's history and appearance of integrity.
hungerstrike 9y ago
IMO that’s probably because the POTUS doesn’t really have any power over things. We get a new one every four or eight years but somehow things always stay the same. They’re all puppets in my opinion.
mobilefriendly 9y ago
"Some folks" in this case being primarily Abu Zubaydah, a top lieutenant of Osama bin Laden who was involved in plotting terror attacks against the U.S. (although not apparently 9/11). The "torture site" was legal under U.S. law at the time as was the destruction of the videos of the interrogations. Abu Zubaydah is still in Gitmo, but if he wasn't the U.S. would be trying kill him.

by apo 9y ago

fein 9y ago

Just as well: > Her then-boss Jose Rodriguez, the CIA’s director of operations for counterterrorism, signed off on the order. But of course all the blame lies on Haspel...

gamblor956 9y ago
She ran the facility and issued the order to destroy the evidence of legal violations. The fact that her boss did not rescind that order doesn't change her complicity.

croon 9y ago

It's impressive that we've fallen so low that we're blaming the Obama administration for not fixing what the Bush administration did. I see it as normalization of the concept that you can't expect any rational action whatsoever from the GOP anymore. Edit: Reading from comments, I should clarify. I totally agree with OP, I just find it incredibly sad.

Sone7 9y ago
>It's impressive that we've fallen so low that we're blaming the Obama administration for not fixing what the Bush administration did. Why The Fuck shouldn't we, he campaigned on ending that shit. His similar actions on the banking crisis continue to have horrific consequences. Who gives a fuck about the GOP, we know they're nutso - Obama pretended to be sane though. Obama is also directly responsible for the DNC owing so much money that they were forced to sign a deal with Hillary before the nominations even started.
- MagnumOpus 9y ago
  > Who gives a fuck about the GOP, we know they're nutso Given that they are running the government, congress, the CIA and everything else besides, a lot of people care - and maybe you should too?
  - Sone7 9y ago
    My point was that if you were expecting the GOP to end torture you're a fucking moron. Obama, on the other hand, was full of fiery speeches during his campaign about ending torture. What are you, implying I don't care that crazy people are running the country? Feck off ya mook.
- unclebucknasty 9y ago
  Obama is not in office and the election is over. Perhaps you should consider caring about the "nutso" GOP, as their hold on power is the current reality.
  - Sone7 9y ago
    My point was that if you were expecting the GOP to end torture you're a fucking moron. Obama, on the other hand, was full of fiery speeches during his campaign about ending torture. What are you, implying I don't care that crazy people are running the country? Feck off ya mook.
    - unclebucknasty 9y ago
      Judging from this and your other recent comments, you seem to be imploding. Anyone can have a bad day(s), and I think it's worthwhile to recognize that humanness and be willing to extend grace. Still, that doesn't mean I need to go there with you. Good luck.
wallace_f 9y ago
Remember when he said he would protect whistle blowers? Anyways, Obama's targeted killing doc[1] actually shows the deep state constitutional abuses and extrajudicial killings continued to develop and evolve under his watch. Whether he is really in control of that, or not, is up for debate. Eisenhower and JFK warned us that these unelected powers were becoming too powerful. 1-https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/02/obama-targeted-killing-white-paper-drone-strikes/ https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/02/obama-targeted-...
kirse 9y ago
Obama authorized 10x the number of drone strikes as Bush that killed over 391+ civilians while he was in office, and he did it on his own volition. Ultimately any president has to make hard life-altering decisions, so lets cut out the left vs. right nonsense. Go ahead, read the article, don't let the facts hit you on the way out. https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2016/01/12/reflecting-on-obamas-presidency/obamas-embrace-of-drone-strikes-will-be-a-lasting-legacy https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2016/01/12/reflecting-...
- rvo 9y ago
  Obama is also I think one of very few presidents who explicitly targeted and killed American natural born citizen. Not accidentally, but actually targeted. Didn't even bother hiding it. But I agree with the original point, GOP did start this mess on the lie of weapons of mass destruction.
  - shams93 9y ago
    Well you go back to 911 itself and the government involvement with Osama Bin Laden going back to the 1980s, go back to the CIA making my childhood incredibly dangerous by dumping incredible amounts of guns and drugs into cities such as Los Angeles. When do the American people get to tell the CIA "you're fired!"
    - rvo 9y ago
      Those were massive fups. That is very different from listing the name of an American on a "kill list" and ordering a drone strike. Judge, jury and executioner. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki
  - davvolun 9y ago
    Maybe I'm just playing devil's advocate, but is what Obama did significantly different from Union soldiers under Lincoln's orders during the Civil War? The form of warfare has changed dramatically, but wouldn't that be something of a parallel? P.S. I don't want to sound like an apologist regarding Obama's actions here. My personal feelings are that he was largely better than Bush, but not without fault.
apo 9y ago
This shouldn't be a partisan issue. I'm talking about the disintegration of the rule of law. The new Commander in Chief failed to hold those under his command accountable for their immoral, illegal acts that put our democracy at risk. In doing so, he set a precedent that will last for generations.
yAnonymous 9y ago
Everybody knew Bush was a tool and there were little expectations. Obama, on the other hand, was branded as the good guy. He did very little to deserve that though. People were blinded by his eloquence, but he was a huge disappointment as a president. I mean, if the next president after you is a choice between Trump and Hillary Clinton, you definitely fucked up and set the standards low.
jack6e 9y ago
And this is why we have fallen so far. Partisan blame is fine for the campaign trail, but as soon as the president takes office he becomes the adult and the responsibility for starting, continuing, or stopping activities falls on him and his administration. Bush oversaw extra-legal interrogation methods. Obama oversaw a massive increase in extra-legal assassinations by drone. Low-minded citizens can get trapped in the game by getting angry about "the other party" and its actions, or they can recognize that administrations and congressmen in both parties blame the other side for cover while simultaneously building off its precedents to expand their own power.
wpietri 9y ago
Yeah. I'm so tired of this line of reasoning. "The torture happened during the Bush administration and she was put in charge of the CIA during the Trump administration, so obviously we'd better blame the black guy for this." Yes, I too would have liked it if Obama did more on this. But I am not convinced that he did less than he politically could. As is apparently easy to forget, the US right was at his throat for years. A Republican Congressman went on TV to talk about how Obama threatened America's security by... wearing a tan suit. [1] The notion that they would have gotten behind a sustained investigation of the criminality of the Bush years strikes me as absurdly optimistic. [1] http://www.chicagotribune.com/81220218-157.html http://www.chicagotribune.com/81220218-157.html
rdtsc 9y ago
> we've fallen so low that we're blaming the Obama administration for not fixing what the Bush administration At least nobody gave Bush a Nobel Peace Prize. Obama had filled people with hopes and dream and in 8 years did nothing. Just his last year in power he dropped over 20000 bombs in countries we were not even at war with. Speaking of torture, Guantanamo is still open, he could have closed that. In other words expectation were different for Obama so pointing out his failures is also expected vis-a-vis those expectations.
- gamblor956 9y ago
  Obama did try to shut down Guantanamo. Congress passed a law preventing Obama from closing Guantanamo.
  - rdtsc 9y ago
    Shouldn't have promised it then. Apri 2007: "As President, I will close Guantanamo, reject the Military Commissions Act and adhere to the Geneva Conventions. Our Constitution and our Uniform Code of Military Justice provide a framework for dealing with the terrorists." There was nothing there about "if Congress lets me and activist judges don't impede my progress".
    - gamblor956 9y ago
      Obama did shut down Guantanamo to new detainees. Congress wouldn't let him close the facility. He spent the remainder of his term releasing prisoners, trying prisoners, and/or transferring them to other facilities, all pursuant to the UCMJ. Unlike some presidents, Obama tried to follow the rule of law. He achieved 90% what he promised on Guantanamo. Are you really quivering over the last 10%?
      - rdtsc 9y ago
        > Are you really quivering over the last 10%? Yes because it is still open. You don't lock a prisoner without trial only 10% he is either locked up for decades and tortured or he isn't.

JustAnotherPat 9y ago

This is an absolute disaster for the Obama Administration. A complete stain on Barack's history and appearance of integrity.

hungerstrike 9y ago

IMO that’s probably because the POTUS doesn’t really have any power over things. We get a new one every four or eight years but somehow things always stay the same. They’re all puppets in my opinion.

mobilefriendly 9y ago

"Some folks" in this case being primarily Abu Zubaydah, a top lieutenant of Osama bin Laden who was involved in plotting terror attacks against the U.S. (although not apparently 9/11). The "torture site" was legal under U.S. law at the time as was the destruction of the videos of the interrogations. Abu Zubaydah is still in Gitmo, but if he wasn't the U.S. would be trying kill him.