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Two unrelated remarks: I'm surprised that Elixir was the 6th most loved language last year and disappeared this time, while Erlang gained some points. Was it e

Two unrelated remarks: I'm surprised that Elixir was the 6th most loved language last year and disappeared this time, while Erlang gained some points. Was it even in the survey? Also it's interesting that women placed compensation at 4th in "Differences in Assessing Jobs by Gender", but if you point that fact as a contributing factor for the pay gap you can be labeled as sexist.

dvfjsdhgfv 9y ago
> Also it's interesting that women placed compensation at 4th in "Differences in Assessing Jobs by Gender", but if you point that fact as a contributing factor for the pay gap you can be labeled as sexist. How can you be labeled sexist if you point out a simple fact?
- yAnonymous 9y ago
  See this thread, for example.
- purple-again 9y ago
  You must be new to the internet. Hacker News has strong moderation so its one of the best asshole corner of the internet, but make no mistake, you are still in an asshole corner of the internet where you conform or are silenced.
- atom-morgan 9y ago
  Ask Damore.
  - salvar 9y ago
    Yes, he clearly only pointed out facts and nothing else. This is a fair and honest assessment of what happened.
- crispyporkbites 9y ago
  You already know the answer to this. The context of your fact-based statement is where it's meaning (and any offence/labeling) is derived from, not the fact itself, and in this case the person you are responding to is adding an additional fact without citation: This is the "simple" fact: > Women placed compensation at 4th in "Differences in Assessing Jobs by Gender" in a StackOverflow survey targeted at people (mostly developers) who use stackoverflow This is the additional fact that has been added: > [that fact is] a contributing factor for the pay gap And then the phrase > you can be labeled as sexist is added, which of course can be applied to anything anyone ever says about anything gender related. If you deliberately add unsubstantiated information to a fact you will probably be called out for it, and rightly so (IMO).
- jgh 9y ago
  Because there is context beyond "simple facts". A "simple fact" doesn't necessarily mean what the person presenting it thinks it means. There are other factors that go into this "simple fact" that may or may not be mentioned by the person presenting it. So while the fact itself may be true, the causation could be different from the implied causation by the presenter. For example I'm sure you noticed that women skew younger on this survey. If people are earlier in their career perhaps experience and culture matter more than pay. People later in their careers have families to worry about, so they want more pay and care less about culture and languages. I'm not saying I'm correct in this assessment, but what I'm getting at is there needs to be greater context around "facts" beyond the first thing that pops into your mind. Facts can be twisted in many ways to hurt people, be more critical of the things people say on the internet.
- conradfr 9y ago
  It jumped at me because many feminists say that "women care less than men about compensation" is an excuse from the patriarchy to pay women less. So the survey data may be a hint that it's not entirely a myth. My personal experience would be that developers are bad at (or hate) negotiating salaries anyway :)
na85 9y ago
>Also it's interesting that women placed compensation at 4th in "Differences in Assessing Jobs by Gender", but if you point that fact as a contributing factor for the pay gap you can be labeled as sexist. Perhaps the women that responded would rather get paid less than work in a bro culture because they find it unbearable, not because they don't value being compensated well.
- aangjie 9y ago
  Yeah no body is arguing against that particular point. I have to say OP was just pointing out that preference on it's own can contribute quite a bit to the "wage gap".
  - na85 9y ago
    Yes, I get that. What I'm saying is that it's reductionist to just chalk it up to preference and call it a day. It's a complex issue.
- watwut 9y ago
  They are less in opposition then people in these discussions make it up to be. The same people who tend to take you seriously tend to also be willing to pay. And jerk culture tend to prevent your career development, will affect your reputation in front of third parties, and affect both your confidence and ideas about what you can achieve, so eventually you end up with less salary. Bad culture usually implies a lot of nepotism and ass kissing with people taking any dirty advantages they can - and that implies any bias against you being much more mattering then in good culture. One exception is when higher salary is because of "moral values and ethics" trade-offs. And I would be very careful before I would imply that men are more likely to do that trade-off.
reinhardt 9y ago
Even more striking, "the diversity of the company or organization" is second last for women. > The tech industry is struggling overall with issues around diversity, and individual developers are not making it a priority when looking for a job. So perhaps it's not the "tech industry" that's struggling, it's some vocal minority that would like to convince you it does.
- zemo 9y ago
  that's a poor interpretation of the data. That question is not "how satisfied are you with the state of each of these things now", it's "how much do you weight these categories when assessing new jobs". The fact that women don't put diversity at the top doesn't mean that they think that the state of diversity is good. It means that it's not a highly ranks job-selection criteria. What people are prioritizing in a job hunt is what they're not getting in their current job. Women put "The office environment or company culture" first, men put it fourth. Why? Because women leave jobs because they get treated poorly. Men leave jobs because they think someone else will pay them more. For most people, the priority is not in making sure their company looks like a college brochure, it's in finding a place where people will treat them with dignity.
  - beachwood23 9y ago
    This is an excellent interpretation, thanks for sharing.
  - V-2 9y ago
    "women leave jobs because they get treated poorly. Men leave jobs because they think someone else will pay them more" What a stereotyping generalization. Also, underpaying is a (fairly common) form of poor treatment.
    - zemo 9y ago
      take several seats. https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2017/02/28/why-women-leave-the-tech-industry-at-a-45-higher-rate-than-men/#4f807dd34216 https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2017/02/28/why-women-leav... https://medium.com/tech-diversity-files/the-real-reason-women-quit-tech-and-how-to-address-it-6dfb606929fd https://medium.com/tech-diversity-files/the-real-reason-wome... https://www.cio.com/article/3229355/it-industry/why-are-women-leaving-technology-jobs.html https://www.cio.com/article/3229355/it-industry/why-are-wome... https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/04/why-is-silicon-valley-so-awful-to-women/517788/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/04/why-is-...
shaki-dora 9y ago
Nice bit of victim blaming... “If you want to be paid the same as a man, maybe you should not have made ‘not being groped’ [aka company culture] your top priority!”
- lucideer 9y ago
  If all of the items women prioritise above pay were related to the extra challenge of surviving in sexist workplaces as a woman, your comment would be valid. However that, and—possibly—working from home/remotely, are the only two where this applies (the latter was ranked similarly at 10.2% and 10.3%, and in the same position). Adjusting for your argument the answers are as follows: Men: 19.0% The compensation and benefits offered 17.6% The languages, frameworks, and other technologies I'd be working with 15.7% Opportunities for professional development Women: 16.8%. Opportunities for professional development 16.4% The languages, frameworks, and other technologies I'd be working with 14.1%. The compensation and benefits offered Note the large, almost 2% gap for women between pay and the previous priority, and the large, almost 2% gap for men between pay and the next priority.
- sweezyjeezy 9y ago
  It's not clear to me that these are the same at all - if (emphasis) it is true that women do not value pay as much as men, and for this reason they apply for roles which lead them to be payed less - who exactly is the victim here? Are we not trusting women to know what jobs will make them happiest?
  - SiempreViernes 9y ago
    It is clear from their own accounts that many women face discrimination at their workplace, and that being subject to it brings significant costs. Unless you want to argue that women should knowingly accept positions where they will be discriminated against, the effect of sexism is that the viable job pool for women is smaller for reasons outside their control.
    - sweezyjeezy 9y ago
gemma 9y ago
> you can be labeled as sexist You'd have to take those data points in isolation and conclude "men like money more than women" to earn that label. I don't think anyone is surprised to see evidence that an exclusive workplace culture contributes to the pay gap. I'd posit that all else being equal, women value compensation and culture about the same as men. The priorities reflected in the survey are a symptom of the problem, not the cause.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
dep_b 9y ago
Just started my first Elixir project using Phoenix since I needed something that could handle a large message volume and scale. I'm a bit surprised how good it is!
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
rdrey 9y ago
I took the survey and think I remember not seeing Elixir as an option. I would have definitely voted for it.

dvfjsdhgfv 9y ago

> Also it's interesting that women placed compensation at 4th in "Differences in Assessing Jobs by Gender", but if you point that fact as a contributing factor for the pay gap you can be labeled as sexist. How can you be labeled sexist if you point out a simple fact?

yAnonymous 9y ago
See this thread, for example.
purple-again 9y ago
You must be new to the internet. Hacker News has strong moderation so its one of the best asshole corner of the internet, but make no mistake, you are still in an asshole corner of the internet where you conform or are silenced.
atom-morgan 9y ago
Ask Damore.
- salvar 9y ago
  Yes, he clearly only pointed out facts and nothing else. This is a fair and honest assessment of what happened.
crispyporkbites 9y ago
You already know the answer to this. The context of your fact-based statement is where it's meaning (and any offence/labeling) is derived from, not the fact itself, and in this case the person you are responding to is adding an additional fact without citation: This is the "simple" fact: > Women placed compensation at 4th in "Differences in Assessing Jobs by Gender" in a StackOverflow survey targeted at people (mostly developers) who use stackoverflow This is the additional fact that has been added: > [that fact is] a contributing factor for the pay gap And then the phrase > you can be labeled as sexist is added, which of course can be applied to anything anyone ever says about anything gender related. If you deliberately add unsubstantiated information to a fact you will probably be called out for it, and rightly so (IMO).
jgh 9y ago
Because there is context beyond "simple facts". A "simple fact" doesn't necessarily mean what the person presenting it thinks it means. There are other factors that go into this "simple fact" that may or may not be mentioned by the person presenting it. So while the fact itself may be true, the causation could be different from the implied causation by the presenter. For example I'm sure you noticed that women skew younger on this survey. If people are earlier in their career perhaps experience and culture matter more than pay. People later in their careers have families to worry about, so they want more pay and care less about culture and languages. I'm not saying I'm correct in this assessment, but what I'm getting at is there needs to be greater context around "facts" beyond the first thing that pops into your mind. Facts can be twisted in many ways to hurt people, be more critical of the things people say on the internet.
conradfr 9y ago
It jumped at me because many feminists say that "women care less than men about compensation" is an excuse from the patriarchy to pay women less. So the survey data may be a hint that it's not entirely a myth. My personal experience would be that developers are bad at (or hate) negotiating salaries anyway :)

na85 9y ago

>Also it's interesting that women placed compensation at 4th in "Differences in Assessing Jobs by Gender", but if you point that fact as a contributing factor for the pay gap you can be labeled as sexist. Perhaps the women that responded would rather get paid less than work in a bro culture because they find it unbearable, not because they don't value being compensated well.

aangjie 9y ago
Yeah no body is arguing against that particular point. I have to say OP was just pointing out that preference on it's own can contribute quite a bit to the "wage gap".
- na85 9y ago
  Yes, I get that. What I'm saying is that it's reductionist to just chalk it up to preference and call it a day. It's a complex issue.
watwut 9y ago
They are less in opposition then people in these discussions make it up to be. The same people who tend to take you seriously tend to also be willing to pay. And jerk culture tend to prevent your career development, will affect your reputation in front of third parties, and affect both your confidence and ideas about what you can achieve, so eventually you end up with less salary. Bad culture usually implies a lot of nepotism and ass kissing with people taking any dirty advantages they can - and that implies any bias against you being much more mattering then in good culture. One exception is when higher salary is because of "moral values and ethics" trade-offs. And I would be very careful before I would imply that men are more likely to do that trade-off.

reinhardt 9y ago

Even more striking, "the diversity of the company or organization" is second last for women. > The tech industry is struggling overall with issues around diversity, and individual developers are not making it a priority when looking for a job. So perhaps it's not the "tech industry" that's struggling, it's some vocal minority that would like to convince you it does.

zemo 9y ago
that's a poor interpretation of the data. That question is not "how satisfied are you with the state of each of these things now", it's "how much do you weight these categories when assessing new jobs". The fact that women don't put diversity at the top doesn't mean that they think that the state of diversity is good. It means that it's not a highly ranks job-selection criteria. What people are prioritizing in a job hunt is what they're not getting in their current job. Women put "The office environment or company culture" first, men put it fourth. Why? Because women leave jobs because they get treated poorly. Men leave jobs because they think someone else will pay them more. For most people, the priority is not in making sure their company looks like a college brochure, it's in finding a place where people will treat them with dignity.
- beachwood23 9y ago
  This is an excellent interpretation, thanks for sharing.
- V-2 9y ago
  "women leave jobs because they get treated poorly. Men leave jobs because they think someone else will pay them more" What a stereotyping generalization. Also, underpaying is a (fairly common) form of poor treatment.
  - zemo 9y ago
    take several seats. https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2017/02/28/why-women-leave-the-tech-industry-at-a-45-higher-rate-than-men/#4f807dd34216 https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2017/02/28/why-women-leav... https://medium.com/tech-diversity-files/the-real-reason-women-quit-tech-and-how-to-address-it-6dfb606929fd https://medium.com/tech-diversity-files/the-real-reason-wome... https://www.cio.com/article/3229355/it-industry/why-are-women-leaving-technology-jobs.html https://www.cio.com/article/3229355/it-industry/why-are-wome... https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/04/why-is-silicon-valley-so-awful-to-women/517788/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/04/why-is-...

shaki-dora 9y ago

Nice bit of victim blaming... “If you want to be paid the same as a man, maybe you should not have made ‘not being groped’ [aka company culture] your top priority!”

lucideer 9y ago
If all of the items women prioritise above pay were related to the extra challenge of surviving in sexist workplaces as a woman, your comment would be valid. However that, and—possibly—working from home/remotely, are the only two where this applies (the latter was ranked similarly at 10.2% and 10.3%, and in the same position). Adjusting for your argument the answers are as follows: Men: 19.0% The compensation and benefits offered 17.6% The languages, frameworks, and other technologies I'd be working with 15.7% Opportunities for professional development Women: 16.8%. Opportunities for professional development 16.4% The languages, frameworks, and other technologies I'd be working with 14.1%. The compensation and benefits offered Note the large, almost 2% gap for women between pay and the previous priority, and the large, almost 2% gap for men between pay and the next priority.
sweezyjeezy 9y ago
It's not clear to me that these are the same at all - if (emphasis) it is true that women do not value pay as much as men, and for this reason they apply for roles which lead them to be payed less - who exactly is the victim here? Are we not trusting women to know what jobs will make them happiest?
- SiempreViernes 9y ago
  It is clear from their own accounts that many women face discrimination at their workplace, and that being subject to it brings significant costs. Unless you want to argue that women should knowingly accept positions where they will be discriminated against, the effect of sexism is that the viable job pool for women is smaller for reasons outside their control.
  - sweezyjeezy 9y ago

gemma 9y ago

> you can be labeled as sexist You'd have to take those data points in isolation and conclude "men like money more than women" to earn that label. I don't think anyone is surprised to see evidence that an exclusive workplace culture contributes to the pay gap. I'd posit that all else being equal, women value compensation and culture about the same as men. The priorities reflected in the survey are a symptom of the problem, not the cause.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

dep_b 9y ago

Just started my first Elixir project using Phoenix since I needed something that could handle a large message volume and scale. I'm a bit surprised how good it is!

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

rdrey 9y ago

I took the survey and think I remember not seeing Elixir as an option. I would have definitely voted for it.