3 ms·

> Let’s make it simple - having a diverse and welcoming community makes a project more attractive to contributors, and means that it’s more likely to succeed in

by chmln 9y ago

> Let’s make it simple - having a diverse and welcoming community makes a project more attractive to contributors, and means that it’s more likely to succeed in the long term. Sure, I never argued against fostering a welcome environment for contributors. We need more of this especially in open source, where contributions can be sorely lacking. Instead I question the notion that Rust needs to have some sort or diversity to succeed. The assumption that it does implies that without diversity Rust will fail. However, Rust is not particularly diverse at the moment and it is certainly successful.

camplum 9y ago
I would love to see what these "success" metrics are. A happy and stress free workplace can be success to someone. To make money is a by-product of an efficient workforce powered to make decisions. If you have a group of people who always make the same kinds of decisions, based on the same experiences you will have the same kinds of companies making the same mistakes. i.e. Me too, white only hiring, etc. NO ONE EVER TOLD EACH OTHER DO THIS DUMB SHIT, it was built in the culture. If someone who looks at the world different because they have seen different things, offers you a perspective, it's worth a listen. You are somehow conflating a diverse opinion already to a non-educated and therefor less useful one. "See - bias". The fact that you reject said diversity is the argument. It means you have already spewed your privilege in believing that the diverse opinions are already bad/dumb ones.
- kiriakasis 9y ago
  > It means you have already spewed your privilege in believing that the diverse opinions are already bad/dumb ones. this sounds uncalled for in my opinion. there is a difference between saying that something is "needed" and that something is "good". The parent simply said that the statement on the need of diversity was likely political. Diversity is something worth investing into, many agree with this, but to saying that a project needs it implies that you cannot succeed (whatever your idea of success is) without it. EDIT: I am totally ok with a project choosing to support diversity both within itself and in the broader community, i believe that many ways of doing it are extremely beneficial. yet often that _is_ a political stance and can be discussed as one.
  - camplum 9y ago
    Something is "needed". If you don't create "political" change in a world where nothing otherwise would transform, then what? If we don't "force" schools to be diverse a class of people never excel and Obama would never be president. All projects need it, because that project is made of humans. That project can succeed and die but those individuals will carry those experiences forward. I get what everyone here is doing linguistic math with diversity, but none of the replies are taking the impact on humanity in parallel with the success of a business that humans create. We are reaping the benefits from many political changes 50+ years ago that inspired us to see the world differently and we cannot and should not stop now.
  - kbenson 9y ago
    > but to saying that a project needs it implies that you cannot succeed (whatever your idea of success is) without it. Sure. I think a lot of people are also defining succeed as "be somewhere or something I still want to associate with in the future." There have been a few high profile projects that have gotten themselves into hot water because of either unwanted behavior by some that wasn't corrected (or they didn't have a good policy to point to for correction) or was too strongly corrected (different people have different thresholds, and without a clear concept to point to, even if somewhat vaguely defined, some people tend to go nuclear before a warning shot has been fired, which is also unfair). We may at some time get to the point where communities are including too many general and positive policies, but I don't think we're there yet. In the meantime, when correctly followed they provide help and protection to people on both sides of whatever issue they are concerning.

by chmln 9y ago

camplum 9y ago

I would love to see what these "success" metrics are. A happy and stress free workplace can be success to someone. To make money is a by-product of an efficient workforce powered to make decisions. If you have a group of people who always make the same kinds of decisions, based on the same experiences you will have the same kinds of companies making the same mistakes. i.e. Me too, white only hiring, etc. NO ONE EVER TOLD EACH OTHER DO THIS DUMB SHIT, it was built in the culture. If someone who looks at the world different because they have seen different things, offers you a perspective, it's worth a listen. You are somehow conflating a diverse opinion already to a non-educated and therefor less useful one. "See - bias". The fact that you reject said diversity is the argument. It means you have already spewed your privilege in believing that the diverse opinions are already bad/dumb ones.

kiriakasis 9y ago
> It means you have already spewed your privilege in believing that the diverse opinions are already bad/dumb ones. this sounds uncalled for in my opinion. there is a difference between saying that something is "needed" and that something is "good". The parent simply said that the statement on the need of diversity was likely political. Diversity is something worth investing into, many agree with this, but to saying that a project needs it implies that you cannot succeed (whatever your idea of success is) without it. EDIT: I am totally ok with a project choosing to support diversity both within itself and in the broader community, i believe that many ways of doing it are extremely beneficial. yet often that _is_ a political stance and can be discussed as one.
- camplum 9y ago
  Something is "needed". If you don't create "political" change in a world where nothing otherwise would transform, then what? If we don't "force" schools to be diverse a class of people never excel and Obama would never be president. All projects need it, because that project is made of humans. That project can succeed and die but those individuals will carry those experiences forward. I get what everyone here is doing linguistic math with diversity, but none of the replies are taking the impact on humanity in parallel with the success of a business that humans create. We are reaping the benefits from many political changes 50+ years ago that inspired us to see the world differently and we cannot and should not stop now.
- kbenson 9y ago
  > but to saying that a project needs it implies that you cannot succeed (whatever your idea of success is) without it. Sure. I think a lot of people are also defining succeed as "be somewhere or something I still want to associate with in the future." There have been a few high profile projects that have gotten themselves into hot water because of either unwanted behavior by some that wasn't corrected (or they didn't have a good policy to point to for correction) or was too strongly corrected (different people have different thresholds, and without a clear concept to point to, even if somewhat vaguely defined, some people tend to go nuclear before a warning shot has been fired, which is also unfair). We may at some time get to the point where communities are including too many general and positive policies, but I don't think we're there yet. In the meantime, when correctly followed they provide help and protection to people on both sides of whatever issue they are concerning.