6 ms·

> culture of exhibitionism that takes place in real life that "strangely" seems to have so far escaped being raised in the ongoing gender wars I'm not sure wha

> culture of exhibitionism that takes place in real life that "strangely" seems to have so far escaped being raised in the ongoing gender wars I'm not sure what discussing a lack of clothing or dressing provocatively would achieve - it's never an adequate defence for poor behaviour or assault by a third party. Any nuanced debate about the topic is difficult and likely to be a no-win scenario. One of the few reasonable points to be made is that revealing clothing can be inappropriate in professional settings, however I think other females need to be the ones who encourage appropriate attire in the office. A male delivering the message would lead to anger and resistance as it'll be viewed as a form of control rather than something formed from consensus. This might be an overly simplistic way of looking at it, but female exhibitionism is not dissimilar from a guy flashing how much power and resources they have. It's a signalling system, and it attracts both wanted and unwanted attention, but in a civil society assault and harassment are never acceptable no matter how provocative someone's behaviour might seem.

mistermann 9y ago
> I'm not sure what discussing a lack of clothing or dressing provocatively would achieve - it's never an adequate defence for poor behaviour or assault by a third party. It might open people's eyes to some of the hypocrisy in the current public dialogue, just one of many issues being that the same action (wearing revealing clothing) is considered just fine and don't you dare even question it you victim-blamer when committed by one gender, and sexual assault when committed by another. Oh and by the way, "all we want is to be treated equally'. > Any nuanced debate about the topic is difficult and likely to be a no-win scenario. This is correct. It would be a step in the right direction if we could get people to extremely explicitly admit that they refuse to debate the topic. > One of the few reasonable points to be made is that revealing clothing can be inappropriate in professional settings I'd very much to read a statement of consensus on that as well as many other topics. I have a sneaking suspicion that the reason we don't is that all of these things that men should "just know" don't have anything approaching a consensus of opinion on the female side. But we'll keep that secret between you and me. > This might be an overly simplistic way of looking at it, but female exhibitionism is not dissimilar from a guy flashing how much power and resources they have. It's a signalling system, and it attracts both wanted and unwanted attention, but in a civil society assault and harassment are never acceptable no matter how provocative someone's behaviour might seem. Once again, you are correct. But good luck getting anyone to admit that female exhibitionism is ever deliberate and strategic, even though it absolutely permeates society and was an utterly uncontroversial idea < 10 years ago. The whole public discussion is a farce, and the longer we let it go on before some adults step in and tell people to clean up their acts, the more innocent people on both sides will get hurt.
- icanhackit 9y ago
  > It might open people's eyes to some of the hypocrisy in the current public dialogue, just one of many issues being that the same action (wearing revealing clothing) is considered just fine and don't you dare even question it you victim-blamer when committed by one gender, and sexual assault when committed by another. Oh and by the way, "all we want is to be treated equally'. I'm not seeing apples for apples in your argument - it'd be valid to say the popular female opinion (whatever that is) is hypocritical if their stance was that men couldn't wear revealing clothing, but you're making the point that they're hypocrites for wearing provocative clothing and then being upset if they're treated indecently or worse. You could argue their exhibitionism is inappropriate, but that is subjective, shaped by culture, and entirely different to saying their position is hypocritical. If I'm rich and wave my money as I walk down the street, it's still a crime to rob me even if you feel as though I was asking for it.
  - mistermann 9y ago
    > I'm not seeing apples for apples in your argument - it'd be valid to say the popular female opinion (whatever that is) is hypocritical if their stance was that men couldn't wear revealing clothing Isn't that their stance? If a man went out in public with 1/3 of the flesh of his penis showing, everyone would be cool with it? The reality is, he'd be arrested for indecent exposure. In this case, the equivalent of what women do on a regular basis is quite literally illegal. > but you're making the point that they're hypocrites for wearing provocative clothing and then being upset if they're treated indecently or worse No I'm not. > If I'm rich and wave my money as I walk down the street, it's still a crime to rob me even if you feel as though I was asking for it. I'm not saying otherwise. This conversation is actually not a terrible example of my overall point.
    - disconcision 9y ago
      It's not very obvious, to me at least, what your overall point is? > If a man went out in public with 1/3 of the flesh of his penis showing, everyone would be cool with it? The reality is, he'd be arrested for indecent exposure. In this case, the equivalent of what women do on a regular basis is quite literally illegal. I don't understand what the specific double-standard you're alluding to it? I don't think a woman with exposed genitals is going to escape an indecent exposure charge. Upthread you liken men wearing revealing clothing to sexual assault, but I've never seen this as a talking point in the gender discourse.

mistermann 9y ago

> I'm not sure what discussing a lack of clothing or dressing provocatively would achieve - it's never an adequate defence for poor behaviour or assault by a third party. It might open people's eyes to some of the hypocrisy in the current public dialogue, just one of many issues being that the same action (wearing revealing clothing) is considered just fine and don't you dare even question it you victim-blamer when committed by one gender, and sexual assault when committed by another. Oh and by the way, "all we want is to be treated equally'. > Any nuanced debate about the topic is difficult and likely to be a no-win scenario. This is correct. It would be a step in the right direction if we could get people to extremely explicitly admit that they refuse to debate the topic. > One of the few reasonable points to be made is that revealing clothing can be inappropriate in professional settings I'd very much to read a statement of consensus on that as well as many other topics. I have a sneaking suspicion that the reason we don't is that all of these things that men should "just know" don't have anything approaching a consensus of opinion on the female side. But we'll keep that secret between you and me. > This might be an overly simplistic way of looking at it, but female exhibitionism is not dissimilar from a guy flashing how much power and resources they have. It's a signalling system, and it attracts both wanted and unwanted attention, but in a civil society assault and harassment are never acceptable no matter how provocative someone's behaviour might seem. Once again, you are correct. But good luck getting anyone to admit that female exhibitionism is ever deliberate and strategic, even though it absolutely permeates society and was an utterly uncontroversial idea < 10 years ago. The whole public discussion is a farce, and the longer we let it go on before some adults step in and tell people to clean up their acts, the more innocent people on both sides will get hurt.

icanhackit 9y ago
> It might open people's eyes to some of the hypocrisy in the current public dialogue, just one of many issues being that the same action (wearing revealing clothing) is considered just fine and don't you dare even question it you victim-blamer when committed by one gender, and sexual assault when committed by another. Oh and by the way, "all we want is to be treated equally'. I'm not seeing apples for apples in your argument - it'd be valid to say the popular female opinion (whatever that is) is hypocritical if their stance was that men couldn't wear revealing clothing, but you're making the point that they're hypocrites for wearing provocative clothing and then being upset if they're treated indecently or worse. You could argue their exhibitionism is inappropriate, but that is subjective, shaped by culture, and entirely different to saying their position is hypocritical. If I'm rich and wave my money as I walk down the street, it's still a crime to rob me even if you feel as though I was asking for it.
- mistermann 9y ago
  > I'm not seeing apples for apples in your argument - it'd be valid to say the popular female opinion (whatever that is) is hypocritical if their stance was that men couldn't wear revealing clothing Isn't that their stance? If a man went out in public with 1/3 of the flesh of his penis showing, everyone would be cool with it? The reality is, he'd be arrested for indecent exposure. In this case, the equivalent of what women do on a regular basis is quite literally illegal. > but you're making the point that they're hypocrites for wearing provocative clothing and then being upset if they're treated indecently or worse No I'm not. > If I'm rich and wave my money as I walk down the street, it's still a crime to rob me even if you feel as though I was asking for it. I'm not saying otherwise. This conversation is actually not a terrible example of my overall point.
  - disconcision 9y ago
    It's not very obvious, to me at least, what your overall point is? > If a man went out in public with 1/3 of the flesh of his penis showing, everyone would be cool with it? The reality is, he'd be arrested for indecent exposure. In this case, the equivalent of what women do on a regular basis is quite literally illegal. I don't understand what the specific double-standard you're alluding to it? I don't think a woman with exposed genitals is going to escape an indecent exposure charge. Upthread you liken men wearing revealing clothing to sexual assault, but I've never seen this as a talking point in the gender discourse.