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Are there musicians of today, with popularity similar to Coltrane's in 1960, that study and explore the theory of music at this level? If not, why not? Was jazz

Are there musicians of today, with popularity similar to Coltrane's in 1960, that study and explore the theory of music at this level? If not, why not? Was jazz, and bebop in particular, unique in this regard? It's a serious question; I don't know. I can't think of any current musicians but that's not conclusive. Also, I'm not sure exactly how popular John Coltrane was in 1960; certainly jazz was orders of magnitude more popular than it is now.

hartem_ 9y ago
I’d argue that Mehldau today is not less popular. I wouldn’t be surprised if it turned out that he did explore the theory of music at that same level, but I don’t have any evidence :).
ZenoArrow 9y ago
> "Are there musicians of today, with popularity similar to Coltrane's in 1960, that study and explore the theory of music at this level?" Jacob Collier springs to mind, though he's less well known than John Coltrane. http://youtu.be/DnBr070vcNE http://youtu.be/DnBr070vcNE
UncleEntity 9y ago
I heard (back in the '90s) Trey Anastasio was heavy into the music theory. Don't know if it's true since I never got into Phish so YMMV.
adamsea 9y ago
Names which spring to mind (though bear in mind popularity is quite a relative term when it comes to jazz). And that I’m not super-up on the current jazz scene: Wadada Leo Smith, Vijay Iyer, Branford Marsalis, Dave Douglas, Kamasi Washington They all have varying degrees of popularity and avant-gardness. Also, it’s not really fair to compare any of them (or any other contemporary players) to Coltrane - that was a special time for jazz. Plus music has moved on — new genres, instruments, it’s new times. Candidates for the new John Coltrane, Id argue, would be hip hop producers: J Dilla, Madlib, Flying Lotus (who is actually related to Alice Coltrane), DJ Premier, Pete Rock, RZA, Q-Tip, are some of the most influential producers who have strong connections to jazz. By which I mean knowledge of, musical influence from, and also using samples of jazz (though arguably that’s the least relevant part) in their work. You could make an argument for rappers, too (Rakim, Nas, etc), as hip hop is the inheritor of the jazz tradition, but it is trickier comparing rapping - oral poetry at heart - to instrumental music. One reason, imho, jazz had that golden age was that it was during a time in NYC when there was a critical concentration of talent and opportunities for jazz musicians to make a living playing gigs there.
- brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
  Totally agree with you. Excellent answer. Vijay most of all with the theory/math. I sat through a lecture he gave on ragas in jazz once, and it was essentially a math class about ragas.
  - adamsea 9y ago
    That must have been awesome! I was lucky enough to see Vijay & Wadada in Chicago last year. Indian music is crazy/complex/awesome - I learned a tiny bit about it when learning about Olivier Messiaen's "Quartet for the End of Time."
    - brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
      It was so boring. North and South Indian music is wonderful-I love it. But hearing Vijay break that down was mind-numbing. I like some of his music. Wadada can be great too! But I really wish we could stop justifying jazz by the labor it takes to produce/understand it. I need a break from jazz versions of Radiohead and Hendrix tunes as well. This trend is heralding the content crisis I'm afraid.
Demiurge 9y ago
Yes, there are a plethora of extremely talented musicians, of every genre who take music theory extremely seriously in order to reach top competitive level. If you look at any live performance of a pop star, most likely their band will include drummer, guitarists, keyboard player, sound engineers at the top of their game. They might even be playing jazz on the side :) Check out this pretty much random video of two great young guitarist getting pretty deep in applying theory https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFRUCd4gQe4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFRUCd4gQe4
brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
Most jazz musicians today under the age of 45, went to music school. Brad Mehldau went to the New School. (someone mentioned Brad) The jazz faculty at the New School, when he went there at least, was ramming theory down every student (most music school does this as one of the main requirements of graduation). The piano/comp/theory teachers then (Gary Dial and Armen Donelian?) were all about the theory, especially for pianists, who kind of have to have the structure nailed down in their heads in order to accompany others at least. But nearly every musician you will hear on a recording or at a concert these days went to music school. Music school has to employ all of its academic faculty, so as a result, they have to require several years of varying kinds of theory, counterpoint, jazz theory, etc. I could go into why the music schools feel that they have to overload every musician with all kinds of required theory classes, but you'd likely be bored. Let's just say it makes everyone feel comfortable with how legit pro they are. So to answer the question, no, jazz is not unique. Bebop is not unique in this way. All musicians who go to a serious top-10 conservatory must waste a boatload of time taking all sorts of theory classes. Some programs are better than others. The conservatory I went to put musicians through a brutally boring and in-depth multi-year course of theory and analysis.

hartem_ 9y ago

I’d argue that Mehldau today is not less popular. I wouldn’t be surprised if it turned out that he did explore the theory of music at that same level, but I don’t have any evidence :).

ZenoArrow 9y ago

> "Are there musicians of today, with popularity similar to Coltrane's in 1960, that study and explore the theory of music at this level?" Jacob Collier springs to mind, though he's less well known than John Coltrane. http://youtu.be/DnBr070vcNE http://youtu.be/DnBr070vcNE

UncleEntity 9y ago

I heard (back in the '90s) Trey Anastasio was heavy into the music theory. Don't know if it's true since I never got into Phish so YMMV.

adamsea 9y ago

Names which spring to mind (though bear in mind popularity is quite a relative term when it comes to jazz). And that I’m not super-up on the current jazz scene: Wadada Leo Smith, Vijay Iyer, Branford Marsalis, Dave Douglas, Kamasi Washington They all have varying degrees of popularity and avant-gardness. Also, it’s not really fair to compare any of them (or any other contemporary players) to Coltrane - that was a special time for jazz. Plus music has moved on — new genres, instruments, it’s new times. Candidates for the new John Coltrane, Id argue, would be hip hop producers: J Dilla, Madlib, Flying Lotus (who is actually related to Alice Coltrane), DJ Premier, Pete Rock, RZA, Q-Tip, are some of the most influential producers who have strong connections to jazz. By which I mean knowledge of, musical influence from, and also using samples of jazz (though arguably that’s the least relevant part) in their work. You could make an argument for rappers, too (Rakim, Nas, etc), as hip hop is the inheritor of the jazz tradition, but it is trickier comparing rapping - oral poetry at heart - to instrumental music. One reason, imho, jazz had that golden age was that it was during a time in NYC when there was a critical concentration of talent and opportunities for jazz musicians to make a living playing gigs there.

brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
Totally agree with you. Excellent answer. Vijay most of all with the theory/math. I sat through a lecture he gave on ragas in jazz once, and it was essentially a math class about ragas.
- adamsea 9y ago
  That must have been awesome! I was lucky enough to see Vijay & Wadada in Chicago last year. Indian music is crazy/complex/awesome - I learned a tiny bit about it when learning about Olivier Messiaen's "Quartet for the End of Time."
  - brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
    It was so boring. North and South Indian music is wonderful-I love it. But hearing Vijay break that down was mind-numbing. I like some of his music. Wadada can be great too! But I really wish we could stop justifying jazz by the labor it takes to produce/understand it. I need a break from jazz versions of Radiohead and Hendrix tunes as well. This trend is heralding the content crisis I'm afraid.

Demiurge 9y ago

Yes, there are a plethora of extremely talented musicians, of every genre who take music theory extremely seriously in order to reach top competitive level. If you look at any live performance of a pop star, most likely their band will include drummer, guitarists, keyboard player, sound engineers at the top of their game. They might even be playing jazz on the side :) Check out this pretty much random video of two great young guitarist getting pretty deep in applying theory https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFRUCd4gQe4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFRUCd4gQe4

brooklyn_ashey 9y ago

Most jazz musicians today under the age of 45, went to music school. Brad Mehldau went to the New School. (someone mentioned Brad) The jazz faculty at the New School, when he went there at least, was ramming theory down every student (most music school does this as one of the main requirements of graduation). The piano/comp/theory teachers then (Gary Dial and Armen Donelian?) were all about the theory, especially for pianists, who kind of have to have the structure nailed down in their heads in order to accompany others at least. But nearly every musician you will hear on a recording or at a concert these days went to music school. Music school has to employ all of its academic faculty, so as a result, they have to require several years of varying kinds of theory, counterpoint, jazz theory, etc. I could go into why the music schools feel that they have to overload every musician with all kinds of required theory classes, but you'd likely be bored. Let's just say it makes everyone feel comfortable with how legit pro they are. So to answer the question, no, jazz is not unique. Bebop is not unique in this way. All musicians who go to a serious top-10 conservatory must waste a boatload of time taking all sorts of theory classes. Some programs are better than others. The conservatory I went to put musicians through a brutally boring and in-depth multi-year course of theory and analysis.