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New ThinkPad Guts Bring Intel Core I, DDR4, USB 3 to Cult Laptops
- kauffj 9y agoI'm currently on my fifth ThinkPad, so you could say I'm a fan. But I'd like to warn everyone that uses Linux to be careful about buying one. I bought a T540 3 years ago that shipped with a Bay Trail processor. This processor was absolutely unusable on Linux due to this bug (https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=109051 https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=109051). Even setting max cstate to 1 resulted in regular freezes. Not only would Lenovo not accept a return of the laptop, I could not even get them to update their Linux compatibility page to warn other users! To this day: - The cstate bug is not fixed, and running Linux on a Bay Trail processor will cause lockups - Lenovo continues to recommend laptop versions that are flat out broken on Linux (https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/solutions/pd031426 https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/solutions/pd031426) So be careful!
- make3 9y agoIf it doesn't run Linux well, I don't see why I would ever buy a Lenovo/ThinkPad over a MacBook
- dijit 9y agoI think GP is right to warn people. Historically "Thinkpad" has been the brand that was most likely to run Linux flawlessly, times are changing since Thinkpad is no longer IBM owned and has been on a gradual decline ever since Lenovo bought the rights to the product line.
- Crontab 9y agoI've seen them recommended by quite a few OpenBSD developers as well. Sad to see this.
- ekianjo 9y ago> Thinkpad is no longer IBM owned Pretty much nothing to do with that. It's been years since IBM does not own Thinkpad anymore but Lenovo was perfectly able to provide proper Linux support up until recently.
- bri3d 9y agoI actually agree with blaming Lenovo here, to a degree. While OP is incorrect about the ThinkPad workstation series, which can't have had the c-state bug as it never shipped with an Atom-based processor, Lenovo have extended the ThinkPad brand to a lot of computers (Edge, ThinkPad 8/10 "business tablets" / convertibles, etc.) that are not only not very Linux compatible but are also bad computers overall.
- esarbe 9y agoThe Edge Series was not SO bad. I've owned a Edge 13 for years and it is quite solid with good Linux support.
- newnewpdro 9y agoIt took quite some time for the laptops Lenovo was selling to actually be entirely new designs. For years they were selling incrementally improved classic thinkpads. Around the time when they switched from the thin walled barrel power connector to the USB looking thing is where the designs substantially changed and everything really took a turn for the worse in general.
- pimeys 9y agoThe T-series has been VERY good, still is. If you pick up a T4(6-8)0 and max it out, I can't really think a better programmer's laptop.
- jhasse 9y agoBecause of the other differences?
- ajdlinux 9y agoAs a counterpoint - there are plenty of ThinkPads that run Linux quite well. My team at work is almost 100% ThinkPad X1s or T450s, with a variety of distros (Debian, Fedora, Arch) and we don't have too many problems. It's a shame Lenovo's documentation is inaccurate though!
- acct1771 9y agoRelated: what older models are known to work well with Linux/are preferred by users here? Do any options have open boot/something close?
- keldaris 9y agoI literally hoard good condition X220s, dreading the day when they're no longer fast enough for my needs (hopefully a long way off still). It's the last (going by manufacture date) laptop I enjoy using. The keyboards are superb, the build quality is excellent, perfect compatibility with modern Linux distributions and the battery lasts 4-7h of real world use (6 and 9 cell versions, respectively). You can get models in perfect condition for 300-400 euros on eBay, and they still make new keyboards, batteries, etc. for them. It's the perfect laptop for those of us who dislike chiclet keyboards, the thin > all design fad and all the other maladies of modern laptop design. With Sandy Bridge i7s and 16gb RAM, they're powerful enough for my needs and thankfully let me write and debug AVX-capable code (with the usual profiling caveats associated with the SB architecture). As for open boot, I understand the X220 supports both coreboot and libreboot, but I don't use either, so I can't comment on it in detail.
- carbolite103 9y agoI bought my X220 from a friend for a hundred bucks thinking it'd be a fun toy to install Linux on, but it has become my daily driver. My only gripe is the flimsyness of the plastic just above the ExpressCard slot.
- philippnagel 9y agoIt's much better with a card inserted. Infact the ExpressCard-slot made me choose an X220 over the X230. It can be used to connect an external GPU!
- anthony_barker 9y ago.. this I have bought a couple of newer Thinkpads but they end up reverting to my x220. x230 is almost as good but doesn't have the old school keyboard. On reddit.com/r/thinkpad there is huge following for moding them.. My only recommendation is to ensure it you have an SSD and load up on RAM.
- petecox 9y agoIt appears bay trail was a particularly bad release. Not to defend Intel but that was 3 generations ago; I would certainly consider a Gemini Lake for my next nettop - where media-pc quiet is more important to me than performance. (provided no showstopper bugs exist!)
- chx 9y ago> I bought a T540 3 years ago that shipped with a Bay Trail processor. You didn't. Bay Trail is an Atom and there has never been a ThinkPad T with an Atom chip. Not to mention that the 40 generation didn't have a T540. It had a T540p with various Haswell CPUs from cheap i3 up to i7 4700MQ. ThinkPads always ran wonderfully with Linux. It is the only with a p, all other T5x0 machines from the T500 to T580 didn't have a p (performance) postfix. I do not think there was any ThinkPad ever for that matter with an Atom chip but here I might forget some bad apples. But certainly not in the T and X2... series, these are flagship business class machines. Maybe some Ideapad? Yoga? Flex? whatever 2-in-1 -- but who cares about those.
- kristianp 9y agoActually, there were also Bay Trail Pentiums and Celerons: https://ark.intel.com/products/codename/55844/Bay-Trail https://ark.intel.com/products/codename/55844/Bay-Trail
- chx 9y agoI meant the Atom architecture in general, trade names nonwithstanding. Bonnell, Saltwell, Silvermont, Airmont, Goldmont, Goldmont Plus. ThinkPads, on the other hand, in roughly the same time frame have used Merom, Penryn, Arrandale, Sandy Bridge, Ivy Bridge, Haswell, Broadwell, Skylake, Kaby Lake and Kaby Lake R CPUs. Does that more satisfy you my hair splitting, persnickety friend?
- bri3d 9y agoOr one of the ill-advised "ThinkPad" branded "business tablets" like the ThinkPad 8 or 10. You're right that Lenovo have never shipped a workstation class ThinkPad laptop with Bay Trail, but their attempts to extend the ThinkPad brand have definitely led them to ship some Atom-based duds. I'm going to extend OP the benefit of the doubt on the model name here and say this: it sucks that Lenovo have diluted the "ThinkPad" brand and it sucks that they didn't remove the bad models from their Linux compatiblity list. On the flip side, I think ThinkPad workstation laptops (T-series and above) are still safe for Linux. Just avoid the convertibles and tablets as well as the budget-range Edge series, which are frankly bad computers overall.
- bflesch 9y agoOh, this seems to be the bug I've been experiencing!
- snuxoll 9y agoMy W540 is absolute shit running Linux too, the thing randomly locks up and just running VMWare workstation causes the damned thing to heat up. The ThinkPad was once venerable brand, but I've lost all respect for it - at this point I'm probably just going to buy a MacBook Pro and send the W540 back to the office because I'm tired of playing the Linux compatibility game on modern notebooks.
- hiram112 9y agoUhh. This is depressing. I picked up Slackware and FreeBSD a long time ago and had so much fun plus found a career. I finally through in the towel with Linux as my main machine a long time ago and went back to Windows as 7 was pretty good. With Win10, I've tried to deal with both VMs and WSL, but once I got a MBP there was no turning back. I simply don't have the time or patience to deal with the issues Linux now has. Don't know what the solution is. Perhaps dump Systemd and the rest of RedHat's decision. Or maybe Redhat, Suse, or whover could just get one disto working perfectly on two or three hardware models a la Apple. But not happy with how things have turned our with Linux on the desktop.
- sedachv 9y agohttps://system76.com/ https://system76.com/ and https://www.thinkpenguin.com/ https://www.thinkpenguin.com/ both sell laptops specifically for the Linux market. Recent Dell XPS laptops are also supposed to be great.
- scns 9y agoIn europe you can order similar machines tuxedocomputers.com Disclaimer: Just a customer
- sjellis 9y ago"at this point I'm probably just going to buy a MacBook Pro and send the W540 back to the office because I'm tired of playing the Linux compatibility game on modern notebooks." Former ThinkPad fan, current MacBook user: I am likely to buy a Dell for my next laptop. Dell expanded the range of machines that they will preload with (Ubuntu) Linux last year, and were the first big vendor to sign on to the Linux Vendor Firmware Service, so that supported computers can get easily get firmware upgrades.
- Abishek_Muthian 9y agoInteresting. Couple of chromebooks use Bay Trail chipset, though a audio firmware related issue on linux is quite known (https://github.com/GalliumOS/galliumos-distro/issues/180 https://github.com/GalliumOS/galliumos-distro/issues/180) I didn't know about the cstate bug. I wonder how ChromeOS avoids(fixes?) both the above said audio issue and the cstate issue mentioned by you.
- techman9 9y agoI hope I never have to do something like this to keep my beloved 2015 Macbook Pro alive.
- thijsvandien 9y agoYou could stash a few while they're still available...
- paulsmal 9y agoI own 2015 macbook pro as well, and I feel like a have to change it soon. Mostly due to battery capacity loss and anti glare coverage issues [0] [0] : https://www.macrumors.com/2015/03/16/retina-macbook-pro-stained-coating/ https://www.macrumors.com/2015/03/16/retina-macbook-pro-stai...
- ropeadopepope 9y agoCan't you get the battery replaced and re-apply the anti-glare coating?
- voltagex_ 9y agoI thought Apple were still replacing screens from that coating defect, even out of warranty.
- akkat 9y agoI wonder why other competitors don't copy the idea of having a sturdy bulky laptop with hardware switches, lots of keyboard buttons, trackpoint, and but battery. Is the market really that small?
- ianai 9y agoMy working hypothesis is the majority of business laptops sit on desks all day. They’re never using any of the built in peripherals and the price isn’t worth it to the OEM.
- barrkel 9y agoThat's right. Laptops are used to give the option of working from home, and a kind of BCP for when the office is inaccessible. Docks, multiple monitors, and real keyboards and mice to make the setup usable.
- pcurve 9y agodon't most people take their laptops home, and also move them around between meetings? Thinkpads take abuse like champ.
- legitster 9y agoDell and HP both have comparable laptops for the enterprise market. But Thinkpad has done a good job of not diluting their lineup with cheap, crappy laptops.
- comboy 9y agoCan you provide some specific models? Because I'd love something modern that looks and feels like X61 but can't seem to find it.
- InclinedPlane 9y agoI have a Dell Latitude for work and it's reasonably comparable to my Thinkpad T470s. I still prefer the Thinkpad but the Latitude doesn't make me constantly hate it every second I use it, unlike lots of other laptops these days.
- legitster 9y agoNice. There are so many of these dream ThinkPad builds. It's a testament to the community that the fanboys don't just complain, they find ways to build the things.
- post_break 9y agoI have an x230 with a mod chip that steals display port lanes so it can run a 1080p panel. Thinkpad users think outside the box to get laptops that fit their needs usually. Unfortunately I switched to a new dell XPS 13 because I need more battery life. Apples and oranges unfortunately, can't afford any of the new thinkpads with decent screens.
- epanchin 9y agoI bought a new battery from Levono for my x230 this year, and the battery life is now ace. Longer than a work day.
- KozmoNau7 9y agoI bought a 9-cell battery (7800mAh) from 2Power, and I get 6-7 hours no problem, with wifi and bluetooth on.
- post_break 9y agoI have a new 9 cell as well. 6-7 hours just doesn't do it for me.
- KozmoNau7 9y agoYou could get the slice battery, along with the 9-cell that should bring you to 15 hours at least, and probably up to 20 (provided you get batteries with accurate stated capacity). Yes, it'll make the laptop significantly more bulky, but the X220 and X230 are from before Lenovo started putting ultra low voltage CPUs in their laptops, so they do have higher TDP than later models. That's just how it is. The X240 can supposedly go for over 24 hours with the maxed out battery configuration.
- post_break 9y agoI bought an X250 because of that. I hated that machine. It felt so cheap and weak. It did not feel like a thinkpad. Sold it rather quickly even though it was much faster and longer lasting than the X230. I'm just done with lenovo at this point. After they gimped the X280 I said that was the final straw.
- chx 9y agoThe article mentions Thunderbolt 3. Let's not get overexcited: these do not have Thunderbolt 3.
- hendry 9y agoI'm loving Archlinux on my new 8th gen T480s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRvYTLntgv4&list=PLiKgVPlhUNuz9k0xIp7PGUV5mmDdTS1vJ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRvYTLntgv4&list=PLiKgVPlhUN...
- bproven 9y agolucky! I grabbed a refurb T470, added an SSD + high cap battery. Runs Fedora like a charm! I did pay 1/3 of the price of a T480s but I do wish I had those extra 2 cores!!
- vuln 9y agoMy x220 with an i7, 16GB of RAM and a 500GB Samsung SSD. The thing flys. Just upgraded upgraded to the newest Debian release with zero issues. Everything just works.
- granitosaurus 9y agoDon't forget IPS screen that you can get off ebay for $50! The biggest upgrade I've done to my x220. I think you can even get FHD moded IPS somehow, but it looked like a bit of work last time I checked.
- ardfie 9y agoI bought a used x230 recently. My only gripe has been the washed out display - I should give this a go. Otherwise the performance is very good for a machine that was so inexpensive.
- post_break 9y agoI'm going to be selling my x230 soon. I've got a mod chip and 1080p IPS display I could sell you.
- beenBoutIT 9y agoIPS is the easiest and biggest single improvement for the X220. Coreboot's the next single biggest improvement, although it's not easy.
- vuln 9y agoI am waiting on the backlist for the FHD mod... I already have the IPS screen forgot to mention that!
- bufferoverflow 9y ago12.5" and 1366x768 though. That's way too tiny and low res for comfortable work.
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- nine_k 9y agoI wonder why the lineup of boxy, built-like-a-tank, serviceable laptops with a comfortable keyboard and plenty of room for batteries seems to have dried up. I have trouble finding such a machine with a hi-DPI screen, for instance. If I could mount a screen from Dell XPS (3840 pixels wide) to a T420, that would be mostly it. A thunderbolt connector would be a mere nice-to-have. The next best thing is apparently a Thinkpad Carbon, it seems to retain a good keyboard, but apparently bids farewell to the "serviceable" part: e.g. RAM is soldered on.
- djsumdog 9y agoGaming laptops are probably the direction to go. The larger MSIs and Alienwares (Dell) are bulkier and probably more user-serviceable (although I'd check iFixit first to be sure). You do have to deal with the dual-video card craziness, but there are plenty of guides to show which ACPI setting to changed to ensure they're off when you're trying to save battery. Some of the MSIs change the color of the power LED to indicate which GPU is active which helps as well.
- KozmoNau7 9y agoIf you get the proper business-class models from Lenovo, Dell or HP, you can still service just about everything with nothing more than a phillips screwdriver. Screen replacement on the newer Thinkpads is a little harder than it used to be, because the front frame is glued on now, but replacements are inexpensive.
- tomcooks 9y agoIf only Alienware offered a no-brand, no tacky 1337 LED's or bright chartreuse inserts
- wpietri 9y agoSame. I ended up buying the Thinkpad 25th anniversary edition, which got me the classic keyboard and reasonably new guts. They're still available if you want, although the DPI isn't as high as you'd like. https://www3.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpad-t-series/ThinkPad-25/p/22TP2TTTP25 https://www3.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpad-t-se...
- stealthcat 9y agoCan I trust them? I have trust issues with Chinese (botnets, backdoor in bios etc.)
- flycaliguy 9y agoYou answered your own question.
- slezyr 9y agoWhat company/country you trust?
- kerberos84 9y agoHe trusts in NSA.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- stanislavb 9y agoIf only I could have a decent ThinkPad running OSX...
- MatthewRayfield 9y agoAh but you can ! I bought a Thinkpad T420 last year and put OS X on it using this amazing guide: http://www.insanelymac.com/forum/topic/285678-lenovo-thinkpad-t420-with-uefi-only/#comment-1952283 http://www.insanelymac.com/forum/topic/285678-lenovo-thinkpa... Works great :]
- djsumdog 9y agoReminds me of back in the day when I had a hackintosh desktop running 10.6; really the last good OS X version. Everything since that I haven't really liked.
- pimeys 9y agoHere's another OSX capable model: http://x220.mcdonnelltech.com/ http://x220.mcdonnelltech.com/
- fouc 9y agoMy first choice was a thinkpad. My second choice was a macbook.
- jasonkester 9y agoOoh! Instabuy. I have 3 or 4 of these little t60 vintage thinkpads, and they're still the ideal road machine, 10 years later. You can pick a used one up on eBay for less than $200, then spend another hundred or so dropping in a new keyboard, 8gb memory, and a TB SSD. Then you can stuff it into the bottom of your backpack and sit on it while taking the slow boat up the Mekong. Whenever I head off somewhere sketchy enough to worry about the safety or smooshability of the $2500 dev machine, I'm on eBay grabbing a new one. Now I have a new final step in the process.
- gnfisher 9y agoHow is the CPU in these? I have an X220 with the i5 Broadwell (I think, model 2450m) and the CPU is mostly fine. The Core 2 Duo in the T60 seems to be a quite a step down, though...
- godelmachine 9y agoI bought ThinkPad in 2013. Highly disappointed. Won't buy again.
- matte_black 9y agoWhy?
- godelmachine 9y agoEven a slight movement caused the laptop to hang, and this has been happening ever since the day I bought. I dismissed it as something trivial and didn' took it up to customer service. A few months later, I got multiple vertical lines across my monitor. The technician came and while disassembling, he messed the nuts & bolts. When he assembled later, he forgot to put a few nuts in place. A few days later got the same vertical lines problem. Took these 2 issues to their customer service, even escalated, was 4 hours on call. They did not give 2 hoots. That's how Lenovo treats its ThinkPad customers
- grenoire 9y agoSounds like a faulty HDD on which the OS resides.
- zaarn 9y agoFor university I got a T450 a while ago. Probably the best laptop I ever had. It runs linux flawlessly (and I mean it, booting straight from a Knoppix ISO Image from 2.3 kernel times is no problem as much as booting a modern 4.15 kernel) It seems they have somewhat fubar'd some of the newer and cheaper releases. I do however recommend to atleast try the more business oriented variants, usually they contain less crap. I also find it disappointing that nobody else builds laptops like the Thinkpad. All I want from a good laptop is A) sturdy B) nipple mouse and C) long battery life.
- edwinyzh 9y agoI'm satisfied with my T450 too! It's the 256G SDD edition with another 512G SSD I attached later on.
- ssebastianj 9y agoAnother happy user of a T450 here :)
- shasheene 9y agoThe fundamental issue here is there was never any industry standardization for laptops like there was for desktop PCs. An ATX case (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATX https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATX) from 1995 can still be used as the enclosure for a 2018 desktop. That's 23 years. (See the "sleeper PC" subculture) If a few component manufacturers came together and standardize component dimensions and tolerances based on something like an IBM ThinkPad, and an age of upgradeable laptops could have occurred.
- mmjaa 9y agoI have a GPD Pocket, and I love it. Its a unibody laptop with a great screen, passable keyboard, and so on. Its user serviceable - very easy to open up. What I'd love: if some bright and talented hardware engineer could produce an upgrade board for it, so I could swap out the existing PCB for a newer CPU. I'm sure this would be a successful project for some budding hacker!