5 ms·

This is one of the reasons it's frustrating to have so many routers with proprietary firmware that can't be replaced. These routers essentially never get updat

This is one of the reasons it's frustrating to have so many routers with proprietary firmware that can't be replaced. These routers essentially never get updated.

Arnt 9y ago
Mikrotik's good about this, though. I have several Mikrotiks at home (difficult WLAN due to walls etc), purchased by a company that later upgraded to 802.11n-capable APs. Some of what I have is >10 years old. Mikrotik still makes new OS images for them, and they answer support mail without asking me for a customer number, registration or anything.
wmf 9y ago
Even if the firmware can be replaced, 99% of the time it won't be. And while it's nice that volunteer hackers are producing third-party firmware, we can't rely on that as the solution for Internet security.
- thomastjeffery 9y ago
  > we can't rely on that as the solution for Internet security. We could if updating router firmware were an easy and prolific practice. The reason that it isn't is that it can't be done on most routers, especially the cheaper or ISP-provided ones that most people use. What we really can't rely on is "security by obscurity". Let's drop the notion that software is more secure simply because you don't release the source.
  - wmf 9y ago
    People maintaining their own cars used to be a prolific practice, but I think we're better off now with cars that require dramatically less maintenance. Unfortunately the IOT market is in a bad situation because products are advertised as not requiring any maintenance but they aren't reliable enough to live up to that.
    - thomastjeffery 9y ago
      We could have automatic updates. There is nothing technical preventing that from happening. People defragmenting their NTFS filesystems used to be a prolific practice, but I think we're better off now with filesystems that require dramatically less maintenance. My point is that the only thing holding us back is politics: manufacturers think that it is in their best interest to sell routers with proprietary firmware, even though it really isn't.
dredmorbius 9y ago
OpenWRT and the Turris Omnia are an interesting alternative, for home/SOHO use.
- philjohn 9y ago
  Especially now that the remaining OpenWRT devs have seen the light and LEDE is being merged back into the project, with governance modelled on the successful fork.
- Teever 9y ago
  I'm not sure how I feel about a router with a built in simcard slot. Does that mean that it has the 4g radio built in as well? Can I trust that chip and hte software that runs on it?
  - voltagex_ 9y ago
    Do you own a smartphone? You've got less access to the 4G chip there. The 4G card is an option on the Turris. You could always use a Quectel card and then run Linux on that, too!
  - dredmorbius 9y ago
    LTE is an mPCi expansion. The LTE chipset is not included by default. Conversion instructions: https://doc.turris.cz/doc/en/howto/lte_modem_install https://doc.turris.cz/doc/en/howto/lte_modem_install
philjohn 9y ago
To be fair, a whole heap of routers DO have third party firmware available. Pretty much anything using Qualcomm 802.11a/b/g/n/ac chips usually has OpenWRT/LEDE/DDWRT builds available, and more recent fullmac Broadcom chips are seeing more support. Quantenna and Mediatek can still be difficult to get working, but they have a far smaller market share. If you want a good, open-source friendly, router manufacturer for the home stick to NetGear. They've got an entire community called MyOpenRouter where people provide customised builds of the official firmware, as well as versions of DD-WRT and NetGear themselves often have a version of OpenWRT available. I've been running LEDE (OpenWRT) on a Netgear R7800 in my home for the past year and it's been rock steady, is nicer to administer than the stock firmware and I can strip out anything that I don't want running on there very easily with a custom build.
- acidburnNSA 9y ago
  Seconded. LEDE/OpenWRT is now running my and lots of my friends' routers. Once they see my OpenVPN server running on it with a roadwarrior setup that lets me get onto my local network, security cams, and Home Assistant self-hosted home automation stuff they all want one too. Very slick stuff. You can even set up VLANs and lots of other fun advanced features.
  - philjohn 9y ago
    Yep, I've got an OpenVPN server running on mine as well for similar reasons. It's also useful to get fine-grained control of the firewall for parental controls - tag the mac addresses of the kids devices as having to use OpenDNS websafe DNS resolvers, then block any other DNS traffic on the firewall and enforce time limits on internet usage. I've got a small NAS connected to it as well to serve as backup repository for all computers in the house (which is then synced off to a cloud backup storage provider) and media server.
megous 9y ago
Microtik gets frequent updates. You get what you pay for. Crap router for $20, no updates. Microtik or other well supported router for >$100, I've done about 20 updates since I got it years ago.

This is one of the reasons it's frustrating to have so many routers with proprietary firmware that can't be replaced. These routers essentially never get updated.

Arnt 9y ago

Mikrotik's good about this, though. I have several Mikrotiks at home (difficult WLAN due to walls etc), purchased by a company that later upgraded to 802.11n-capable APs. Some of what I have is >10 years old. Mikrotik still makes new OS images for them, and they answer support mail without asking me for a customer number, registration or anything.

wmf 9y ago

Even if the firmware can be replaced, 99% of the time it won't be. And while it's nice that volunteer hackers are producing third-party firmware, we can't rely on that as the solution for Internet security.

thomastjeffery 9y ago
> we can't rely on that as the solution for Internet security. We could if updating router firmware were an easy and prolific practice. The reason that it isn't is that it can't be done on most routers, especially the cheaper or ISP-provided ones that most people use. What we really can't rely on is "security by obscurity". Let's drop the notion that software is more secure simply because you don't release the source.
- wmf 9y ago
  People maintaining their own cars used to be a prolific practice, but I think we're better off now with cars that require dramatically less maintenance. Unfortunately the IOT market is in a bad situation because products are advertised as not requiring any maintenance but they aren't reliable enough to live up to that.
  - thomastjeffery 9y ago
    We could have automatic updates. There is nothing technical preventing that from happening. People defragmenting their NTFS filesystems used to be a prolific practice, but I think we're better off now with filesystems that require dramatically less maintenance. My point is that the only thing holding us back is politics: manufacturers think that it is in their best interest to sell routers with proprietary firmware, even though it really isn't.

dredmorbius 9y ago

OpenWRT and the Turris Omnia are an interesting alternative, for home/SOHO use.

philjohn 9y ago
Especially now that the remaining OpenWRT devs have seen the light and LEDE is being merged back into the project, with governance modelled on the successful fork.
Teever 9y ago
I'm not sure how I feel about a router with a built in simcard slot. Does that mean that it has the 4g radio built in as well? Can I trust that chip and hte software that runs on it?
- voltagex_ 9y ago
  Do you own a smartphone? You've got less access to the 4G chip there. The 4G card is an option on the Turris. You could always use a Quectel card and then run Linux on that, too!
- dredmorbius 9y ago
  LTE is an mPCi expansion. The LTE chipset is not included by default. Conversion instructions: https://doc.turris.cz/doc/en/howto/lte_modem_install https://doc.turris.cz/doc/en/howto/lte_modem_install

philjohn 9y ago

To be fair, a whole heap of routers DO have third party firmware available. Pretty much anything using Qualcomm 802.11a/b/g/n/ac chips usually has OpenWRT/LEDE/DDWRT builds available, and more recent fullmac Broadcom chips are seeing more support. Quantenna and Mediatek can still be difficult to get working, but they have a far smaller market share. If you want a good, open-source friendly, router manufacturer for the home stick to NetGear. They've got an entire community called MyOpenRouter where people provide customised builds of the official firmware, as well as versions of DD-WRT and NetGear themselves often have a version of OpenWRT available. I've been running LEDE (OpenWRT) on a Netgear R7800 in my home for the past year and it's been rock steady, is nicer to administer than the stock firmware and I can strip out anything that I don't want running on there very easily with a custom build.

acidburnNSA 9y ago
Seconded. LEDE/OpenWRT is now running my and lots of my friends' routers. Once they see my OpenVPN server running on it with a roadwarrior setup that lets me get onto my local network, security cams, and Home Assistant self-hosted home automation stuff they all want one too. Very slick stuff. You can even set up VLANs and lots of other fun advanced features.
- philjohn 9y ago
  Yep, I've got an OpenVPN server running on mine as well for similar reasons. It's also useful to get fine-grained control of the firewall for parental controls - tag the mac addresses of the kids devices as having to use OpenDNS websafe DNS resolvers, then block any other DNS traffic on the firewall and enforce time limits on internet usage. I've got a small NAS connected to it as well to serve as backup repository for all computers in the house (which is then synced off to a cloud backup storage provider) and media server.

megous 9y ago

Microtik gets frequent updates. You get what you pay for. Crap router for $20, no updates. Microtik or other well supported router for >$100, I've done about 20 updates since I got it years ago.