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> We don’t employ any female website developers at 10 Degrees. There’s one very simple reason for that: we’ve never had any women apply for our developer vacanc

> We don’t employ any female website developers at 10 Degrees. There’s one very simple reason for that: we’ve never had any women apply for our developer vacancies. Not one. > We know from industry networking that there are many female web developers out there Maybe their job adverts are inadvertently radiating “nope” signals? Just from looking at their site, they don't actually seem to be hiring at all. There's a casual “hey, maybe contact us if you want a job!”, but that's only gonna attract the Dunning-Kruger Dudes. (Men are disproportionately conditioned to be over-confident, because boys are rewarded for being noisy and cheeky.) So I suppose if this is how they do hiring, that would explain why they're only getting men applying for their development jobs.

enord 9y ago
>Just from looking at their site, they don't actually seem to be hiring at all. There's a casual “hey, maybe contact us if you want a job!”, but that's only gonna attract the Dunning-Kruger Dudes. (Men are disproportionately conditioned to be over-confident, because boys are rewarded for being noisy and cheeky.) I think I'm going to have to politely WTF? that, if you don't mind.
- gregknicholson 9y ago
  I'm not sure which part you're WTFing, so I'll try to unpack my comment: > Just from looking at their site, they don't actually seem to be hiring at all. I couldn't see a clear Careers page on their site, which I found slightly surprising. > There's a casual “hey, maybe contact us if you want a job!”, On the About page there is a message like this. Literally it says “Looking for a new challenge? We are always on the lookout for likeminded individuals to join our growing team. If you've got the talent to help our mission and you share our values, please get in touch.” That's a very general prompt for people who want a job to contact them. You need quite a high bar of self-confidence to apply in response such a general prompt. > that's only gonna attract the Dunning-Kruger Dudes. This is my cute nickname for people who believe they're great when in fact they're merely OK, in reference to the Dunning-Kruger effect. These people do have enough self-confidence to reply to the vague prompt. “Dudes” because I believe these people are disproportionately male: > (Men are disproportionately conditioned to be over-confident, because boys are rewarded for being noisy and cheeky.) This is my opinion. In my 2nd-hand experience, young boys are generally encouraged to be boisterous and even naughty, whereas young girls are expected to be quieter and more shy. Boys are more likely to be confident in their own abilities than girls, even when the two have similar skill levels. This assertion comes from a small-scale experiment in [a TV show](https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09202jz https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09202jz), which is not proper science, and it's reasonable to reject this assertion as anecdote. In any case, this is generalising and there are always counterexamples. But if any of this holds somewhat true, it may explain how the asymmetry arose. Hopefully that answered your WTF!
watwut 9y ago
Yeah, I have not found anything that would suggest they are hiring. I would never responded to "Whether it's to say hello or start a brand new project with us. We'd love to hear from you!", I just don't expect that to be serious. I would also feel stupid or looking desperate to answer that, so I would not. I am more comfortable with more formal job descriptions, expectations and such. And male job seekers would not be harmed by clarity either. I don't know whether I am norm or not nor whether that has anything to do with them. They are small company, there is a lot of randomness in these things, rolling dice and all that. My probably biased observation is that unlike what stereotypes say, men in tech are more likely to be attracted to personally "just fun" feeling ads then women who more likely work in "soulless" medium to large sized companies. May be wrong ... Also pro-tip: the title is flamebaity. I know that especially on this topic almost everything feels flamebaity, but this one makes people emotional and biased before they even read it.
mmmeff 9y ago
I don't understand how you can make theories like that from thin air. Have you ever even been involved in hiring in a tech company? I have, and I'll tell you right now after interviewing well over 50 candidates, we only ever had 1 female applicant and she wasn't a good fit for the role due to lack of experience (we were looking for a senior and got a junior). That being said I work with some insanely talented female developers but they're mostly freelance and happy in that role. The article makes a really solid point - invest in education and get women and minorities excited for the field instead of giving these groups a free pass to a job (see: Google) if you want to foster a healthy community and ensure a better future for everyone.
- gregknicholson 9y ago
  > we only ever had 1 female applicant Exactly! Is it possible that the job advert, or something else about the company, was disproportionately attracting male applicants and putting off female applicants? (disproportionately, compared to the demographics of existing qualified developers) Would your company be capable of noticing? > The article makes a really solid point - invest in education and get women and minorities excited for the field Yes, this is definitely good! It's very easy to disclaim responsibility, because “the talent just isn't out there”. But this way, you cultivate more talent, and (if you put the work in) you get goodwill from everyone involved.
tomp 9y ago
> Men are disproportionately conditioned to be over-confident, because boys are rewarded for being noisy and cheeky. This is highly unlikely to apply to most of geeks/developers.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  I disagree; geeks particularly are a product of (and create themselves; it is cyclical) a subculture in which being outwardly confident on matters not rewarded by the broader social group, at least of age peers, is, in-fact, rewarded.

enord 9y ago

>Just from looking at their site, they don't actually seem to be hiring at all. There's a casual “hey, maybe contact us if you want a job!”, but that's only gonna attract the Dunning-Kruger Dudes. (Men are disproportionately conditioned to be over-confident, because boys are rewarded for being noisy and cheeky.) I think I'm going to have to politely WTF? that, if you don't mind.

gregknicholson 9y ago
I'm not sure which part you're WTFing, so I'll try to unpack my comment: > Just from looking at their site, they don't actually seem to be hiring at all. I couldn't see a clear Careers page on their site, which I found slightly surprising. > There's a casual “hey, maybe contact us if you want a job!”, On the About page there is a message like this. Literally it says “Looking for a new challenge? We are always on the lookout for likeminded individuals to join our growing team. If you've got the talent to help our mission and you share our values, please get in touch.” That's a very general prompt for people who want a job to contact them. You need quite a high bar of self-confidence to apply in response such a general prompt. > that's only gonna attract the Dunning-Kruger Dudes. This is my cute nickname for people who believe they're great when in fact they're merely OK, in reference to the Dunning-Kruger effect. These people do have enough self-confidence to reply to the vague prompt. “Dudes” because I believe these people are disproportionately male: > (Men are disproportionately conditioned to be over-confident, because boys are rewarded for being noisy and cheeky.) This is my opinion. In my 2nd-hand experience, young boys are generally encouraged to be boisterous and even naughty, whereas young girls are expected to be quieter and more shy. Boys are more likely to be confident in their own abilities than girls, even when the two have similar skill levels. This assertion comes from a small-scale experiment in [a TV show](https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09202jz https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09202jz), which is not proper science, and it's reasonable to reject this assertion as anecdote. In any case, this is generalising and there are always counterexamples. But if any of this holds somewhat true, it may explain how the asymmetry arose. Hopefully that answered your WTF!

watwut 9y ago

Yeah, I have not found anything that would suggest they are hiring. I would never responded to "Whether it's to say hello or start a brand new project with us. We'd love to hear from you!", I just don't expect that to be serious. I would also feel stupid or looking desperate to answer that, so I would not. I am more comfortable with more formal job descriptions, expectations and such. And male job seekers would not be harmed by clarity either. I don't know whether I am norm or not nor whether that has anything to do with them. They are small company, there is a lot of randomness in these things, rolling dice and all that. My probably biased observation is that unlike what stereotypes say, men in tech are more likely to be attracted to personally "just fun" feeling ads then women who more likely work in "soulless" medium to large sized companies. May be wrong ... Also pro-tip: the title is flamebaity. I know that especially on this topic almost everything feels flamebaity, but this one makes people emotional and biased before they even read it.

mmmeff 9y ago

I don't understand how you can make theories like that from thin air. Have you ever even been involved in hiring in a tech company? I have, and I'll tell you right now after interviewing well over 50 candidates, we only ever had 1 female applicant and she wasn't a good fit for the role due to lack of experience (we were looking for a senior and got a junior). That being said I work with some insanely talented female developers but they're mostly freelance and happy in that role. The article makes a really solid point - invest in education and get women and minorities excited for the field instead of giving these groups a free pass to a job (see: Google) if you want to foster a healthy community and ensure a better future for everyone.

gregknicholson 9y ago
> we only ever had 1 female applicant Exactly! Is it possible that the job advert, or something else about the company, was disproportionately attracting male applicants and putting off female applicants? (disproportionately, compared to the demographics of existing qualified developers) Would your company be capable of noticing? > The article makes a really solid point - invest in education and get women and minorities excited for the field Yes, this is definitely good! It's very easy to disclaim responsibility, because “the talent just isn't out there”. But this way, you cultivate more talent, and (if you put the work in) you get goodwill from everyone involved.

tomp 9y ago

> Men are disproportionately conditioned to be over-confident, because boys are rewarded for being noisy and cheeky. This is highly unlikely to apply to most of geeks/developers.

dragonwriter 9y ago
I disagree; geeks particularly are a product of (and create themselves; it is cyclical) a subculture in which being outwardly confident on matters not rewarded by the broader social group, at least of age peers, is, in-fact, rewarded.