11 ms·

We really just need better public education, as well as clearer separation between information and entertainment. Facebook/Reddit/Twitter/etc promote a regress

We really just need better public education, as well as clearer separation between information and entertainment. Facebook/Reddit/Twitter/etc promote a regression towards the mean understanding... viral content reflects and amplifies the "average user's" sentiment and values. Acceptable for entertainment, but inherently prone to misinformation, propaganda, and demagoguery. Education requires valuing subject matter experts. Opinions which may not be widely held, or even popular, but supported by people who are vetted as being knowledgeable on the subject. Traditional media could be regulated because they were largely centralized, but centralization also creates an establishment that regulated counter-culture ideas. In contrast, the internet is anarchic. Online anonymity impairs delegation of trust... any idea can be published so every individual must rationally evaluate what they consume. Attempting to regulate away undesirable behavior on the anarchic internet is just cat-herding. At best, you create a walled garden for a select few. As I see it, the paths forward are either: * public education, emphasizing civics/rationality, to support distributed self-regulation * centralizing with state regulations I want the former but the latter seems most likely, considering how the underlying networks are consolidating, and increasing awareness of how amplified public ignorance creates political/economic instability that hurts those with power.

joshuata 9y ago
I wish this were true, but the amount of fake news spread by trusted news networks, such as newspapers spreading Russian propaganda bots, implies that education isn't sufficient. If a professional cannot discriminate between truth and lies on twitter how can an average person?
- TAForObvReasons 9y ago
  The economic incentives are misaligned. Fake news helps with page views and other KPI. If there was an actual enforcable cost associated with misrepresenting the truth, we'd see a slowdown in fake news. The restoration of the Fairness Doctrine would also help stymie some of the biggest promulgators like Fox News * * you can search for "fox news viewers misinformed" and encounter studies and results like http://publicmind.fdu.edu/2011/knowless/ http://publicmind.fdu.edu/2011/knowless/
  - shaki-dora 9y ago
    The analogy of food nicely shows that some sort of race-to-the-bottom does not necessarily occur: there’s still organic or other high quality fresh food even though McDonald’s has been around for a while. Similarily, there are still excellent news sources. The Economist is often cited in these discussions, and the New York Times is also vigilant in their reporting and the correction of errors when they occur[0]. What we’ve seen is a breakdown in trust of institutions, largely disconnected from actual mistakes on their part. People will quickly demand proof and invoke conspiracy theories when, for example, the there-letter agencies accuse Eussia of interfering in elections. They have learned to invoke “appeal to authority fallacy”too well, without offering an alternative. Because you cannot evaluate a new story without in some way deferring to the reputation of the publisher.
    - losteric 9y ago
      I disagree with the fast food analogy because that has obvious and direct personal costs, while infotainment negatives are subtle and externalized. Re: trust and appeal to authority; your example made me realize people are drawn to grand conspiracies because unverifiable theories are infallible... Luring in people unfamiliar with probabilistic reasoning and consilience.
    - CaptSpify 9y ago
      At the same time, I feel like we are seeing a breakdown of trust in institutions because of actual mistakes that, in years past, would have gone unnoticed. Although this distrust does have negative impacts to our society, I view this distrust as an overall good thing.
    - bluGill 9y ago
      Organic food is not higher quality. Organic just means they cannot use some arbitrary list of farming practices, (some good some bad). Sure McDonalds is not good, but there is also plenty of organic that equally bad (or worse).
      - Mediterraneo10 9y ago
anigbrowl 9y ago
We really just need better public education That's great but it's a slow cultural change. Well-educated countries can still fall into extremism, which is driven by emotional and atavistic factors as well as economic and political ones, and can't simply be dispelled with doses of Rationality (tm). Arguably, the failure of rational utilitarianism to engage with this aspect of humanity and to simply dismiss everything that can't be quantified as irrationality exacerbates the growth of toxicity. On a more practical level, the US is a country where part of the population rejects the theory of evolution on religious grounds, historical narratives are intensely contested, and political life is objectively and increasingly polarized. Educational change happens over generational timescales, and if it were as simple as making it available all our social ills would have been dispelled long ago. Of course education and critical thinking skills are essential for a healthy social body, but when I see people saying 'we just need better education' I feel like I'm on a bus that's headed towards a cliff edge and well-meaning people are suggesting that the solution to this is better driving lessons.
- losteric 9y ago
  My intent was to describe the system (social media is a hyper-efficient anarchic consensus-based information exchange), and a root-cause for undesirable output... There may not be a solution that preserves the open internet, if this system is fundamentally incompatible with social realities.
knodi123 9y ago
> .../Reddit/... promote a regression towards the mean understanding... viral content reflects and amplifies the "average user's" sentiment and values Comparing the experience in a niche subreddit, vs. a default subreddit, it's clear that the real problem is allowing causals in. If people have to go out of their way to participate, you wind up with only the ones who care to do so. And they have, in their reputation, something they don't want to lose. But if people are allowed to participate by default, you get the enormous masses of people who, collectively, by virtue of their shifting roster, are immune to moderation. And you get people who set out that morning to share as many opinions as possible, instead of the people who set out to participate in that community exclusively.
- prepend 9y ago
  I’ve witnessed this in well-meaning subredddits. Lots of arcane rules for posting. No warn band and removals mean I don’t try again. On the subreddits I manage, I allow broad participation with no barriers. But they aren’t popular enough to have enough trolling to break me down and add hoops.
devinhelton 9y ago
"We really just need better public education" I agree 100% as long as you put me, or people of my worldview, in charge of the curriculum and personnel.
- cookiecaper 9y ago
  Yes. In today's age of near-universal literacy, "uneducated" is just a euphemism for views disliked by the the side in control of the education apparatus. While thought-policing media, schools, churches, and any other possible venue of "indoctrination" may "work" to a superficial extent, it mostly just completely destroys the credibility of your authority and leads to stunning implosion and destabilization. See: the Soviet Union. Like it or not, you can't just beat "undesirable" views out of people, either with schools or social media moderation.
  - slx26 9y ago
    I understand and agree with some points of your criticism, but I disagree with the part that we can't beat undesirable views out of people. Well, we can't do it completely, but it's not a binary thing, and I believe we really can do a lot to educate people. And not a political education, but teaching them about their own biases. Teaching them to be critical, to not just ignore evidence when it goes against their views, to be fair to others, etc. I don't know, I don't think we have actively tried yet.
  - InitialLastName 9y ago
    > Like it or not, you can't just beat "undesirable" views out of people, either with schools or social media moderation. You absolutely can. An example: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2012/sep/22/atheism-east-germany-godless-place https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2012/sep/22...
    - jessaustin 9y ago
      That is indeed an inspirational example.
douglaswlance 9y ago
Why not support private education? Are you against diversity?
- losteric 9y ago
  Taxes don't pay for private education, let the free market decide how to run those schools.
propman 9y ago
The clear separation between information and entertainment is BRILLIANTLY said. Seems straightforward but it's really important. Why is Twitter, a cesspool of memes, rap, sports, and kardashians mostly used by kids under 25 the primary means of breaking stories? Why is so much news on there? Anytime profitability, entertainment, short attention spans and news all get entwined, the resulting outcome is clear. Facebook, Reddit, twitter, Snapchat have all started for entertainment and switched to catchbyte reaction/outrage culture news and normal news has turned into a mess as well. I say regulations wiping trending news feed off Facebook, twitter and Snapchat is a start. Perhaps funding to any group that meets set in stone criteria regardless of political affiliation gets some federal funding to make up for the cost of making real journalism. That journalism must be fact checked and we hold them accountable. People are desensitized to everything now and when shocking news is made every 15 minutes and the world is so connected we become numb to so much and that is incredibly dangerous
heedlessly2 9y ago
>We really just need better public education, as well as clearer separation between information and entertainment. nope, this won't work. People will always need a place to voice their vile comments in a cowardly manner

joshuata 9y ago

I wish this were true, but the amount of fake news spread by trusted news networks, such as newspapers spreading Russian propaganda bots, implies that education isn't sufficient. If a professional cannot discriminate between truth and lies on twitter how can an average person?

TAForObvReasons 9y ago
The economic incentives are misaligned. Fake news helps with page views and other KPI. If there was an actual enforcable cost associated with misrepresenting the truth, we'd see a slowdown in fake news. The restoration of the Fairness Doctrine would also help stymie some of the biggest promulgators like Fox News * * you can search for "fox news viewers misinformed" and encounter studies and results like http://publicmind.fdu.edu/2011/knowless/ http://publicmind.fdu.edu/2011/knowless/
- shaki-dora 9y ago
  The analogy of food nicely shows that some sort of race-to-the-bottom does not necessarily occur: there’s still organic or other high quality fresh food even though McDonald’s has been around for a while. Similarily, there are still excellent news sources. The Economist is often cited in these discussions, and the New York Times is also vigilant in their reporting and the correction of errors when they occur[0]. What we’ve seen is a breakdown in trust of institutions, largely disconnected from actual mistakes on their part. People will quickly demand proof and invoke conspiracy theories when, for example, the there-letter agencies accuse Eussia of interfering in elections. They have learned to invoke “appeal to authority fallacy”too well, without offering an alternative. Because you cannot evaluate a new story without in some way deferring to the reputation of the publisher.
  - losteric 9y ago
    I disagree with the fast food analogy because that has obvious and direct personal costs, while infotainment negatives are subtle and externalized. Re: trust and appeal to authority; your example made me realize people are drawn to grand conspiracies because unverifiable theories are infallible... Luring in people unfamiliar with probabilistic reasoning and consilience.
  - CaptSpify 9y ago
    At the same time, I feel like we are seeing a breakdown of trust in institutions because of actual mistakes that, in years past, would have gone unnoticed. Although this distrust does have negative impacts to our society, I view this distrust as an overall good thing.
  - bluGill 9y ago
    Organic food is not higher quality. Organic just means they cannot use some arbitrary list of farming practices, (some good some bad). Sure McDonalds is not good, but there is also plenty of organic that equally bad (or worse).
    - Mediterraneo10 9y ago

anigbrowl 9y ago

We really just need better public education That's great but it's a slow cultural change. Well-educated countries can still fall into extremism, which is driven by emotional and atavistic factors as well as economic and political ones, and can't simply be dispelled with doses of Rationality (tm). Arguably, the failure of rational utilitarianism to engage with this aspect of humanity and to simply dismiss everything that can't be quantified as irrationality exacerbates the growth of toxicity. On a more practical level, the US is a country where part of the population rejects the theory of evolution on religious grounds, historical narratives are intensely contested, and political life is objectively and increasingly polarized. Educational change happens over generational timescales, and if it were as simple as making it available all our social ills would have been dispelled long ago. Of course education and critical thinking skills are essential for a healthy social body, but when I see people saying 'we just need better education' I feel like I'm on a bus that's headed towards a cliff edge and well-meaning people are suggesting that the solution to this is better driving lessons.

losteric 9y ago
My intent was to describe the system (social media is a hyper-efficient anarchic consensus-based information exchange), and a root-cause for undesirable output... There may not be a solution that preserves the open internet, if this system is fundamentally incompatible with social realities.

knodi123 9y ago

> .../Reddit/... promote a regression towards the mean understanding... viral content reflects and amplifies the "average user's" sentiment and values Comparing the experience in a niche subreddit, vs. a default subreddit, it's clear that the real problem is allowing causals in. If people have to go out of their way to participate, you wind up with only the ones who care to do so. And they have, in their reputation, something they don't want to lose. But if people are allowed to participate by default, you get the enormous masses of people who, collectively, by virtue of their shifting roster, are immune to moderation. And you get people who set out that morning to share as many opinions as possible, instead of the people who set out to participate in that community exclusively.

prepend 9y ago
I’ve witnessed this in well-meaning subredddits. Lots of arcane rules for posting. No warn band and removals mean I don’t try again. On the subreddits I manage, I allow broad participation with no barriers. But they aren’t popular enough to have enough trolling to break me down and add hoops.

devinhelton 9y ago

"We really just need better public education" I agree 100% as long as you put me, or people of my worldview, in charge of the curriculum and personnel.

cookiecaper 9y ago
Yes. In today's age of near-universal literacy, "uneducated" is just a euphemism for views disliked by the the side in control of the education apparatus. While thought-policing media, schools, churches, and any other possible venue of "indoctrination" may "work" to a superficial extent, it mostly just completely destroys the credibility of your authority and leads to stunning implosion and destabilization. See: the Soviet Union. Like it or not, you can't just beat "undesirable" views out of people, either with schools or social media moderation.
- slx26 9y ago
  I understand and agree with some points of your criticism, but I disagree with the part that we can't beat undesirable views out of people. Well, we can't do it completely, but it's not a binary thing, and I believe we really can do a lot to educate people. And not a political education, but teaching them about their own biases. Teaching them to be critical, to not just ignore evidence when it goes against their views, to be fair to others, etc. I don't know, I don't think we have actively tried yet.
- InitialLastName 9y ago
  > Like it or not, you can't just beat "undesirable" views out of people, either with schools or social media moderation. You absolutely can. An example: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2012/sep/22/atheism-east-germany-godless-place https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2012/sep/22...
  - jessaustin 9y ago
    That is indeed an inspirational example.

douglaswlance 9y ago

Why not support private education? Are you against diversity?

losteric 9y ago
Taxes don't pay for private education, let the free market decide how to run those schools.

propman 9y ago

The clear separation between information and entertainment is BRILLIANTLY said. Seems straightforward but it's really important. Why is Twitter, a cesspool of memes, rap, sports, and kardashians mostly used by kids under 25 the primary means of breaking stories? Why is so much news on there? Anytime profitability, entertainment, short attention spans and news all get entwined, the resulting outcome is clear. Facebook, Reddit, twitter, Snapchat have all started for entertainment and switched to catchbyte reaction/outrage culture news and normal news has turned into a mess as well. I say regulations wiping trending news feed off Facebook, twitter and Snapchat is a start. Perhaps funding to any group that meets set in stone criteria regardless of political affiliation gets some federal funding to make up for the cost of making real journalism. That journalism must be fact checked and we hold them accountable. People are desensitized to everything now and when shocking news is made every 15 minutes and the world is so connected we become numb to so much and that is incredibly dangerous

heedlessly2 9y ago

>We really just need better public education, as well as clearer separation between information and entertainment. nope, this won't work. People will always need a place to voice their vile comments in a cowardly manner