7 ms·

It's not that the "trolls are winning", it's that people are allowing the trolls to bother them. Trolls have always existed; it's our heightened sensitivity and

It's not that the "trolls are winning", it's that people are allowing the trolls to bother them. Trolls have always existed; it's our heightened sensitivity and inability to just shrug them off or laugh in the face of their obscenity that's letting them "win".

dieterrams 9y ago
Trying to get everyone to not be bothered by trolls is a massive and neverending undertaking.
- Infernal 9y ago
  But policing the expression of wide (and fluidly defined) swaths of thought that some believe to be "toxic" isn't?
  - dieterrams 9y ago
    I just don’t think saying “people shouldn’t let themselves be bothered” is at all a viable solution. Automated troll detection is clearly a hard problem, but I’m not convinced it’s unsolveable. Whereas getting people to not be bothered is, unless people start living forever and have no offspring, by its very nature a commitment without end.
- Karunamon 9y ago
  Yet much more modest than the policing of content that Facebook and the like seems to be interested in. That goes double when it’s two clicks to permanently dismiss someone from your attention. The best troll repellant is and always has been to ignore them.
- taurath 9y ago
  Its also impossible. You're not going to have a close conversation with a group of people when a little kid is jumping up and down and screaming for attention in public. Ignoring them doesn't work for either trolls or bullys. Either they run the show, or you do something about them, end of story.
  - msla 9y ago
    > Ignoring them doesn't work for either trolls or bullys. This goes against decades of received wisdom: DNFTT, anyone? For what it's worth, I agree with you, and I always thought simply not feeding trolls was pointless: There's something similar to a broken window effect in terms of overall tone. If someone comes to a site, sees a lot of negative comments and general asshattery, they'll file that place away as "where the asshats are" even if those comments are being studiously ignored by the regulars. That means the only ones who want to comment there will be the ones who want to act like what they see around them: asshat trolls. I also think that ignoring them until they go away is a bad strategy: Even if you ignore one or two of them successfully, there's dozens if not hundreds of them waiting to join. You can't outwait them all without the community degenerating due to the broken window effect I mentioned above.
    - taurath 9y ago
      I kind of took your first sentence and started replying to it by saying about what you said afterwards - I thought that was your main point! My typed reply: > Do not feed the trolls only solves the problem in smaller communities, or at least only just holds off the effects of the troll (topics spinning out of control, pointless arguing, accusations and recriminations) until they can be moderated. Its not a solution for a community, and never has been.
    - intended 9y ago
      DNFTT worked in an older era. It doesnt work now, and with the diversification and use of the net by vulnerable groups. Having a users on a generalist forum suddenly exposed to flashing lights to induce a seizure, or ambushed by images of dead people, or being attacked for being a woman or a minority group? Yeah you cannot expect people to shrug that off, without also expecting a large mass of humanity to be essentially living without a normal emotional response.
salvar 9y ago
Ah, the old "We just need to change human behaviour" solution. Yeah, that would definitely work if it worked.
- ScipioAfricanus 9y ago
  No one needs to change anything. The internet existed for years without this being an issue. If you encounter someone on the internet who is annoying you, most platforms give you the option to block them. You do that, then move on with your life. It's not hard.
  - rhcom2 9y ago
    That is an incredibly naive view of harassment in an era of doxing, swatting and revenge porn.
  - s73v3r_ 9y ago
    And how do you do that when they come at you by the thousands? And do so in a way that doesn't boil down to a blame the victim solution of simply leaving the platform?
  - kirkules 9y ago
    The internet did not exist in its present form, extent of influence, flexibility, etc., without this being an issue for any length of time. Don't lie to yourself.
- malvosenior 9y ago
  Stopping trolling is the same. People will always troll. If there’s a text input on a site, it will get trolled.
- jpindar 9y ago
  When's the last time you saw someone smoking a cigarette?
  - salvar 9y ago
oblio 9y ago
No, trolls have not existed in the form they exist since the emergence of the internet. Self-censorship is a wonderful thing. And the way it works is: you say dumb things (especially as a kid), you get slapped by your parents/friends/people around you. By age 18 or 21, you know instinctively that what you can and cannot say around other folks. At least the vast majority of folks do. On the internet however, there's no real sense of human interaction and the repercussions are usually minimal. Real life trolling is probably 1/10k of internet trolling.
- ScipioAfricanus 9y ago
  Ok so some random person is saying something you find offensive or hurtful. You can block them so you don't have to see what they post. It's a decentralized solution to a decentralized problem.
  - oblio 9y ago
    Not everyone finds the blocking option in time. Not everyone has the self control to avoid the comments in the first place. Not everything you've seen can be erased and forgotten (there's a reason NSFL exists).
    - thomastjeffery 9y ago
      In time for what? People don't need the self control to avoid trolls, they need the self control to change their reaction to them from simply getting butthurt and offended.
  - DanBC 9y ago
    You don't seem to have any clue about how prolific trolls can be, and how persistant their threats are.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
  - 9y ago
ssully 9y ago
Yeah this is bullshit. Trolls have always existed, but shrugging them off was never a solution. In message boards I used to frequent trolls were suspended without question and banned for repeat offenses. Now when trolls get banned there is an out cry from the troll and those in line with them about censorship and violation of their free speech. The problem is trolls are given too much room to play and speak.
- mindslight 9y ago
  The conflict is that reddit originally touted itself as a meta-community, where such moderation was applied per-subreddit. If you didn't like the topics/policies of one community, then start another right alongside. But the desire of investors for widespread palatability and the media's latest push for censorship have perverted the site into creating unified "community standards", across what should be considered independent communities. Reddit itself gained much of its popularity due to the mass exodus from Digg over their censorship of one simple number! Users inherently do not want to be censored in what they can communicate about, and so the cycle will be with us until we finally scrap this hack of using centralized websites in lieu of end-user software - centralized structures can never remain free of top-down control.
  - s73v3r_ 9y ago
    The other problem is that several subreddits were known to "leak," where the subscribers to some subreddits would go out and spread that kind of thing across the rest of the site. If the racist content stays in their subreddits, it's still terrible that it's there, but at least it can be firewalled off. But when the users of those subreddits start spreading that content through the rest of the site, it's much more difficult to avoid it.
- Chaebixi 9y ago
  > Yeah this is bullshit. Trolls have always existed, but shrugging them off was never a solution. > In message boards I used to frequent trolls were suspended without question and banned for repeat offenses. That must be selective memory, or at least not generalizable: on some pretty major message boards (e.g. Slashdot), trolling became a prominent subculture. In fact, one of the my major memories of numerous early message boards was that trolling was an integral component of the forum culture. Trollish things would frequently be said and you spotted the newbies and outsiders based on how they responded. As you learned the culture, you'd learn not to get trolled and maybe occasionally troll yourself.

dieterrams 9y ago

Trying to get everyone to not be bothered by trolls is a massive and neverending undertaking.

Infernal 9y ago
But policing the expression of wide (and fluidly defined) swaths of thought that some believe to be "toxic" isn't?
- dieterrams 9y ago
  I just don’t think saying “people shouldn’t let themselves be bothered” is at all a viable solution. Automated troll detection is clearly a hard problem, but I’m not convinced it’s unsolveable. Whereas getting people to not be bothered is, unless people start living forever and have no offspring, by its very nature a commitment without end.
Karunamon 9y ago
Yet much more modest than the policing of content that Facebook and the like seems to be interested in. That goes double when it’s two clicks to permanently dismiss someone from your attention. The best troll repellant is and always has been to ignore them.
taurath 9y ago
Its also impossible. You're not going to have a close conversation with a group of people when a little kid is jumping up and down and screaming for attention in public. Ignoring them doesn't work for either trolls or bullys. Either they run the show, or you do something about them, end of story.
- msla 9y ago
  > Ignoring them doesn't work for either trolls or bullys. This goes against decades of received wisdom: DNFTT, anyone? For what it's worth, I agree with you, and I always thought simply not feeding trolls was pointless: There's something similar to a broken window effect in terms of overall tone. If someone comes to a site, sees a lot of negative comments and general asshattery, they'll file that place away as "where the asshats are" even if those comments are being studiously ignored by the regulars. That means the only ones who want to comment there will be the ones who want to act like what they see around them: asshat trolls. I also think that ignoring them until they go away is a bad strategy: Even if you ignore one or two of them successfully, there's dozens if not hundreds of them waiting to join. You can't outwait them all without the community degenerating due to the broken window effect I mentioned above.
  - taurath 9y ago
    I kind of took your first sentence and started replying to it by saying about what you said afterwards - I thought that was your main point! My typed reply: > Do not feed the trolls only solves the problem in smaller communities, or at least only just holds off the effects of the troll (topics spinning out of control, pointless arguing, accusations and recriminations) until they can be moderated. Its not a solution for a community, and never has been.
  - intended 9y ago
    DNFTT worked in an older era. It doesnt work now, and with the diversification and use of the net by vulnerable groups. Having a users on a generalist forum suddenly exposed to flashing lights to induce a seizure, or ambushed by images of dead people, or being attacked for being a woman or a minority group? Yeah you cannot expect people to shrug that off, without also expecting a large mass of humanity to be essentially living without a normal emotional response.

salvar 9y ago

Ah, the old "We just need to change human behaviour" solution. Yeah, that would definitely work if it worked.

ScipioAfricanus 9y ago
No one needs to change anything. The internet existed for years without this being an issue. If you encounter someone on the internet who is annoying you, most platforms give you the option to block them. You do that, then move on with your life. It's not hard.
- rhcom2 9y ago
  That is an incredibly naive view of harassment in an era of doxing, swatting and revenge porn.
- s73v3r_ 9y ago
  And how do you do that when they come at you by the thousands? And do so in a way that doesn't boil down to a blame the victim solution of simply leaving the platform?
- kirkules 9y ago
  The internet did not exist in its present form, extent of influence, flexibility, etc., without this being an issue for any length of time. Don't lie to yourself.
malvosenior 9y ago
Stopping trolling is the same. People will always troll. If there’s a text input on a site, it will get trolled.
jpindar 9y ago
When's the last time you saw someone smoking a cigarette?
- salvar 9y ago

oblio 9y ago

No, trolls have not existed in the form they exist since the emergence of the internet. Self-censorship is a wonderful thing. And the way it works is: you say dumb things (especially as a kid), you get slapped by your parents/friends/people around you. By age 18 or 21, you know instinctively that what you can and cannot say around other folks. At least the vast majority of folks do. On the internet however, there's no real sense of human interaction and the repercussions are usually minimal. Real life trolling is probably 1/10k of internet trolling.

ScipioAfricanus 9y ago
Ok so some random person is saying something you find offensive or hurtful. You can block them so you don't have to see what they post. It's a decentralized solution to a decentralized problem.
- oblio 9y ago
  Not everyone finds the blocking option in time. Not everyone has the self control to avoid the comments in the first place. Not everything you've seen can be erased and forgotten (there's a reason NSFL exists).
  - thomastjeffery 9y ago
    In time for what? People don't need the self control to avoid trolls, they need the self control to change their reaction to them from simply getting butthurt and offended.
- DanBC 9y ago
  You don't seem to have any clue about how prolific trolls can be, and how persistant their threats are.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- 9y ago

ssully 9y ago

Yeah this is bullshit. Trolls have always existed, but shrugging them off was never a solution. In message boards I used to frequent trolls were suspended without question and banned for repeat offenses. Now when trolls get banned there is an out cry from the troll and those in line with them about censorship and violation of their free speech. The problem is trolls are given too much room to play and speak.

mindslight 9y ago
The conflict is that reddit originally touted itself as a meta-community, where such moderation was applied per-subreddit. If you didn't like the topics/policies of one community, then start another right alongside. But the desire of investors for widespread palatability and the media's latest push for censorship have perverted the site into creating unified "community standards", across what should be considered independent communities. Reddit itself gained much of its popularity due to the mass exodus from Digg over their censorship of one simple number! Users inherently do not want to be censored in what they can communicate about, and so the cycle will be with us until we finally scrap this hack of using centralized websites in lieu of end-user software - centralized structures can never remain free of top-down control.
- s73v3r_ 9y ago
  The other problem is that several subreddits were known to "leak," where the subscribers to some subreddits would go out and spread that kind of thing across the rest of the site. If the racist content stays in their subreddits, it's still terrible that it's there, but at least it can be firewalled off. But when the users of those subreddits start spreading that content through the rest of the site, it's much more difficult to avoid it.
Chaebixi 9y ago
> Yeah this is bullshit. Trolls have always existed, but shrugging them off was never a solution. > In message boards I used to frequent trolls were suspended without question and banned for repeat offenses. That must be selective memory, or at least not generalizable: on some pretty major message boards (e.g. Slashdot), trolling became a prominent subculture. In fact, one of the my major memories of numerous early message boards was that trolling was an integral component of the forum culture. Trollish things would frequently be said and you spotted the newbies and outsiders based on how they responded. As you learned the culture, you'd learn not to get trolled and maybe occasionally troll yourself.