4 ms·

-->Compiling AOSP today will result in something that look and behave not much different from late 2.x Android. Any examples?.As a developer, the one's I think

-->Compiling AOSP today will result in something that look and behave not much different from late 2.x Android. Any examples?.As a developer, the one's I think of are location apis (still available in the AOSP, but requires much more code to get right than the google play services version). And the look and feel does not depend on the play services sdk.

kuschku 9y ago
Before Android 2.3.7, AOSP included Google Search, Google Books, Google Talk, the Android Music app, the Android Launcher, Settings, Contacts, Calendar. In Android 8.0, AOSP does not include any of these anymore. In Android 8.0, you need to use Google Play services to get Location, Stepcounter, any device sensor, recent TLS on pre-8.0 devices, any of the above apps, background job scheduling (the new JobScheduler only works on 8.0 or Google Play services), and so on. I've written apps that don't rely on Play Services, I had to reverse engineer and clone half of Play Services to even get a semi-working version. Nowadays, the source code of a new Android version is released months after the binaries are released, and over half a year before the first binary beta releases are released (Android P's first beta binaries are out today, the source code is expected in december). You can already build apps for Android P, making use of the new features - if Google gives you the required code, which they only provide to themselves and a selected few developers. Google makes it as hard as possible to compete fairly, and this has already caught the attention of the EU. And then, of course, there's the fact that the Chromecast SDK requires Play Services (so you can't use Chromecast on Kindle devices), and that receiving Chromecasts is even entirely impossible at the current time for non-Google devices (these are the reasons why Amazon doesn't support Chromecast, but is instead together with Netflix trying to establish a cross-platform API that can use Amazon's sticks, Miracast devices, Chromecast, and many other devices). Google has done everything they could to be as anticompetitive as possible, and of course this will lead to legal action. Potentially half of the Android ecosystem at this point may be based on criminally anticompetitive actions.
- FreakyT 9y ago
  It's pretty sketchy, yes, but it seems to me that Apple has always done even worse equivalents to those things. When will the EU hammer come down on them?
  - kuschku 9y ago
    Maybe when Apple runs 85% of the market and makes contracts with OEMs that have a noncompete clause? You can only commit the crime of "abusing a dominant market position" if you have a dominant market position.
  - ocdtrekkie 9y ago
    There's a few reasons Apple doesn't run afoul of the law as often as Google does: - Anticompetition law applies to monopolies. While Google has several products or services with over 80% market share, Apple has none. Apple's highest share of iOS is in the U.S., where it rolls around 50% with Android, but globally, they barely make an appearance on the board. EU's anticompetition law has no interest in a phone platform with less than 15% of the market. - Apple tends to make a lot of things proprietary, but they're also only used by them in the first place. iOS only runs on iPhones. Google gets into a lot of additional trouble by exerting it's control over it's OEM "partners". For instance, bundling it's Google Apps together as a requirement for OEMs is definitely illegal, whereas Apple putting it's own apps on it's own devices is not.
  - coldtea 9y ago
    There's no such thing as a 'monopoly on your own product' (e.g. Apple controlling 100% of iOS devices). That's just called "having a product". You're a monopoly if you have a almost complete hold of the entire market, which Apple does not, for any market they are in.
  - digi_owl 9y ago
    Apple has already gotten into hot water, but not about iOS. They did get into trouble regarding price fixing of ebooks, for example.
- gregknicholson 9y ago
  > Android P's first beta binaries are out today, the source code is expected in december That sounds a lot like distributing binaries of copyleft software without distributing the corresponding source. Of course, I'm sure there's a very good explanation of how it isn't that, because that would contravene the copyright licences and be all illegal and stuff.
  - kuschku 9y ago
    Android is Apache 2, sadly. And while the kernel is GPL, most vendors distribute kernel binaries without source, and even years later, never publish the source. A major part of the Android ecosystem is based on unspoken piracy of the Linux kernel.
- kshingne 9y ago
  --the new JobScheduler only works on 8.0 or Google Play services actually, it works on Android 5.0, thats the version it was introduced in. -> In Android 8.0, you need to use Google Play services to get Location, Stepcounter, any device sensor, You don't necessarily have to go through play services for any of these. API's are available in the platform for all of them or can be replicated. I think the possible anti competitive behaviour from Google(in Android's case) is forcing the OEM's to install their apps by default.and practically forcing developers to use Play services for notifications.
  - kuschku 9y ago
    > API's are available in the platform for all of them or can be replicated. All the sensors are only available to foreground apps, and only while they are running (at significant battery cost). The only way to get aggregate data is through Google Fit or other Google APIs. I've tried. > actually, it works on Android 5.0, thats the version it was introduced in. There's three versions, but all either require modern Android versions, or Play Services. I detailed this on reddit recently.
- HillaryBriss 9y ago
  > In Android 8.0, you need to use Google Play services I agree. This point is under appreciated. The GPS libraries and their backend services (e.g. Maps and Location, Push Notifications, Google Auth, etc) to a great extent ARE the android SDK. I don't quite see how Yegge's use of the word "stealing" can be correct. No one can steal those backend services. A competitor is going to have to reimplement services like Maps and Push Notifications (not to mention the Google Play Store itself). And that just means more fragmentation in the marketplace, not stealing android.
  - kuschku 9y ago
    Actually, this has been done twice. Recently by the open microG project, and earlier by Amazon. Reimplementing every Google Play service, bug for bug, bit for bit. And Amazon did it (and microG is close). This is what prompted Google's SafetyNet project, and Google changing Chromecast to lock out Amazon and open source projects. Google did everything they could to prevent competition, and yet, they didn't succeed.
FreakyT 9y ago
I'm guessing the parent comment is referring to the state of the "built-in" Android apps. Any AOSP app that has a Google app equivalent generally stopped being updated when that Google app equivalent was released. The AOSP music player was last updated for Gingerbread (replaced by Google Play Music), Gallery was replaced by Google Photos, the SMS app by "Google Messenger", the Mail app by "Gmail" -- even the Phone app is no longer updated!

kuschku 9y ago

Before Android 2.3.7, AOSP included Google Search, Google Books, Google Talk, the Android Music app, the Android Launcher, Settings, Contacts, Calendar. In Android 8.0, AOSP does not include any of these anymore. In Android 8.0, you need to use Google Play services to get Location, Stepcounter, any device sensor, recent TLS on pre-8.0 devices, any of the above apps, background job scheduling (the new JobScheduler only works on 8.0 or Google Play services), and so on. I've written apps that don't rely on Play Services, I had to reverse engineer and clone half of Play Services to even get a semi-working version. Nowadays, the source code of a new Android version is released months after the binaries are released, and over half a year before the first binary beta releases are released (Android P's first beta binaries are out today, the source code is expected in december). You can already build apps for Android P, making use of the new features - if Google gives you the required code, which they only provide to themselves and a selected few developers. Google makes it as hard as possible to compete fairly, and this has already caught the attention of the EU. And then, of course, there's the fact that the Chromecast SDK requires Play Services (so you can't use Chromecast on Kindle devices), and that receiving Chromecasts is even entirely impossible at the current time for non-Google devices (these are the reasons why Amazon doesn't support Chromecast, but is instead together with Netflix trying to establish a cross-platform API that can use Amazon's sticks, Miracast devices, Chromecast, and many other devices). Google has done everything they could to be as anticompetitive as possible, and of course this will lead to legal action. Potentially half of the Android ecosystem at this point may be based on criminally anticompetitive actions.

FreakyT 9y ago
It's pretty sketchy, yes, but it seems to me that Apple has always done even worse equivalents to those things. When will the EU hammer come down on them?
- kuschku 9y ago
  Maybe when Apple runs 85% of the market and makes contracts with OEMs that have a noncompete clause? You can only commit the crime of "abusing a dominant market position" if you have a dominant market position.
- ocdtrekkie 9y ago
  There's a few reasons Apple doesn't run afoul of the law as often as Google does: - Anticompetition law applies to monopolies. While Google has several products or services with over 80% market share, Apple has none. Apple's highest share of iOS is in the U.S., where it rolls around 50% with Android, but globally, they barely make an appearance on the board. EU's anticompetition law has no interest in a phone platform with less than 15% of the market. - Apple tends to make a lot of things proprietary, but they're also only used by them in the first place. iOS only runs on iPhones. Google gets into a lot of additional trouble by exerting it's control over it's OEM "partners". For instance, bundling it's Google Apps together as a requirement for OEMs is definitely illegal, whereas Apple putting it's own apps on it's own devices is not.
- coldtea 9y ago
  There's no such thing as a 'monopoly on your own product' (e.g. Apple controlling 100% of iOS devices). That's just called "having a product". You're a monopoly if you have a almost complete hold of the entire market, which Apple does not, for any market they are in.
- digi_owl 9y ago
  Apple has already gotten into hot water, but not about iOS. They did get into trouble regarding price fixing of ebooks, for example.
gregknicholson 9y ago
> Android P's first beta binaries are out today, the source code is expected in december That sounds a lot like distributing binaries of copyleft software without distributing the corresponding source. Of course, I'm sure there's a very good explanation of how it isn't that, because that would contravene the copyright licences and be all illegal and stuff.
- kuschku 9y ago
  Android is Apache 2, sadly. And while the kernel is GPL, most vendors distribute kernel binaries without source, and even years later, never publish the source. A major part of the Android ecosystem is based on unspoken piracy of the Linux kernel.
kshingne 9y ago
--the new JobScheduler only works on 8.0 or Google Play services actually, it works on Android 5.0, thats the version it was introduced in. -> In Android 8.0, you need to use Google Play services to get Location, Stepcounter, any device sensor, You don't necessarily have to go through play services for any of these. API's are available in the platform for all of them or can be replicated. I think the possible anti competitive behaviour from Google(in Android's case) is forcing the OEM's to install their apps by default.and practically forcing developers to use Play services for notifications.
- kuschku 9y ago
  > API's are available in the platform for all of them or can be replicated. All the sensors are only available to foreground apps, and only while they are running (at significant battery cost). The only way to get aggregate data is through Google Fit or other Google APIs. I've tried. > actually, it works on Android 5.0, thats the version it was introduced in. There's three versions, but all either require modern Android versions, or Play Services. I detailed this on reddit recently.
HillaryBriss 9y ago
> In Android 8.0, you need to use Google Play services I agree. This point is under appreciated. The GPS libraries and their backend services (e.g. Maps and Location, Push Notifications, Google Auth, etc) to a great extent ARE the android SDK. I don't quite see how Yegge's use of the word "stealing" can be correct. No one can steal those backend services. A competitor is going to have to reimplement services like Maps and Push Notifications (not to mention the Google Play Store itself). And that just means more fragmentation in the marketplace, not stealing android.
- kuschku 9y ago
  Actually, this has been done twice. Recently by the open microG project, and earlier by Amazon. Reimplementing every Google Play service, bug for bug, bit for bit. And Amazon did it (and microG is close). This is what prompted Google's SafetyNet project, and Google changing Chromecast to lock out Amazon and open source projects. Google did everything they could to prevent competition, and yet, they didn't succeed.

FreakyT 9y ago

I'm guessing the parent comment is referring to the state of the "built-in" Android apps. Any AOSP app that has a Google app equivalent generally stopped being updated when that Google app equivalent was released. The AOSP music player was last updated for Gingerbread (replaced by Google Play Music), Gallery was replaced by Google Photos, the SMS app by "Google Messenger", the Mail app by "Gmail" -- even the Phone app is no longer updated!