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Okay, I'll take the bait. I'm about as good a representative sample of the people you're talking about as anyone else. I'm 39. I've been in technology in a pro

Okay, I'll take the bait. I'm about as good a representative sample of the people you're talking about as anyone else. I'm 39. I've been in technology in a professional capacity for 22 years, longer now than perhaps a few folks on HN have been alive. I wrote my first computer programs over 30 years ago, started online with local BBSs and then eWorld and then the internet. I've seen a lot of stuff come and go. The tech industry as a whole has, over the last decade, adopted an especially frenzied pace that looks an awful lot like someone lost in the woods, freaking out, running in different directions trying to figure out where they've been and where they're supposed to be going. There's nobody I can wag a finger at and say, "see, you didn't learn the last time 'round", because with a constant influx of new people, there's always a big group of folks that will adopt the latest thing because it's the latest thing, and have no memory of the last 30 years of latest things, and haven't been stung before when the latest thing fizzles out and takes a chunk of your time or infrastructure investment along with it. Slack had advantages, sure. But it's hardly the first time that some service has come along and offered advantages over the tired old thing -- all except for a public, common protocol -- and then decided to take their ball and go home and to hell with everyone else. My staid desire for things being built on open protocols and available to people who want to self-host it doesn't come from some hardnosed ideology, it comes from years of, "oh no, this shit again." Unfortunately, comments like yours tend to dismissively shout down the comments from the been-there-done-that folks, and so we're locked in a particularly self-defeating Eternal September that's costing the tech industry an incalculable amount of money. In my more cynical moments, I wonder if a cadre of old farts oughtta start getting together and giving the less experienced folks the advice they want to hear, just to see how long it takes them to catch on: "building infrastructure out of walled gardens is a good idea, because they are commercial businesses and will be able to offer you more features than the slow-moving open source alternatives that haven't changed much in a long time".

TAForObvReasons 9y ago
> The tech industry as a whole has, over the last decade, adopted an especially frenzied pace that looks an awful lot like someone lost in the woods, freaking out, running in different directions trying to figure out where they've been and where they're supposed to be going. I think there's a simpler explanation: people are trying to find new business models. The old model of individuals paying tens or hundreds of dollars for software is slowly dying, and it's on full display in the iOS app store where even $5 is perceived to be a lot to charge for an app. So we need new models. The rise of SaaS is tied to that shift. in-app purchases and related psychological shenanigans are related to that shift. The SV elders, like Peter Thiel of Palantir, now more than ever seem to favor rent-seeking business models and started selecting for those businesses 5 years ago. To course-correct, someone in technology will have to discover a new business model. I'm personally betting that we'll see a backlash and new models wherein people pay so there is no chance of data harvesting (going back from SaaS to standalone software)
- kurthr 9y ago
  Yes, when everything from Word, to CAD/CAM, to espionage is being priced on a yearly (soon to be monthly) a la cart SaaS subscription basis, you know that it's all about cash flows and lock-in. As you point out it really started after 2010 and has accelerated since 2015.
- unethical_ban 9y ago
  Good points, and it doesn't make Slack or anyone else look any better. They aren't doing what they do for the good of communication and long term retention. They are making themselve a single vendor point of failure on purpose, like so many companies have tried and will try to do with their customers. I don't believe there is a dichotomy between IRC and Slack. In fact, Rocket Chat and Mattermost show that locally hosted platforms can be developed openly and serve a similar purpose.
black_puppydog 9y ago
First off, thanks for the reply. I've been going through a bit of deja-vu myself with this. While I came to the "game" quite a bit later than you, I've been stung by the google and facebook xmpp stunts and so I never bought into slack as some sort of new solution to communication "because you can just log in from IRC." So yes, a bunch of "old farts" are a good a necessary corrective in our hype-driven environment. I agree with the assessment that slack is just another walled garden and comes with all the problems those bring. I even agree with the "open protocol, optionally self-hosted" conclusion. I just don't like the conclusion (not explicitely stated by you, but definitely by others) that that open protocol should be IRC and email, and that the UI for them needs to be pure text. Put a bit shorter: the people have chosen between $SLACK over $OLD_STUFF, so if you want to use something open and still sway them then you'll have to change what's on offer vs slack. Converse.js looks like a prime example of doing just that, as does e.g. conversations. I'd much rather we get our shit together and build jabber into something usable and beautiful than go back to IRC and email.
- thaumaturgy 9y ago
  > I just don't like the conclusion (not explicitely stated by you, but definitely by others) that that open protocol should be IRC and email, and that the UI for them needs to be pure text. I work with a guy like that. I've got a lot of respect for him, but yes, his approach to things causes a lot of headaches for other techs in the company. (He likes to send config files by email ... inline, after gzipping and base64-ing them.) There's a middleground. If more people tried harder to rely on software they could truly own, vs SaaS, it would force more companies to release open source APIs and libraries and all but the crankiest old farts would shut up. I like things to be easy too, but not so much when it bites me in the ass later. Your suggestion for extending jabber seems reasonable.
Mahn 9y ago
The thing is, no one is arguing that propietary and closed is better than public and open. The problem comes when propietary and closed become the "better" option to the masses (faster, easier to use, more user friendly, more available, etc); at that point, you can protest, but average users don't like to give up convenience for ideology, hence on the long run the only way to beat closed and propietary is to have something public and open that can compete.
jaredhansen 9y ago
>Okay, I'll take the bait. I'm about as good a representative sample of the people you're talking about as anyone else. This starts off strong, but then ... >I'm 39. I've been in technology in a professional capacity for 22 years, longer now than perhaps a few folks on HN have been alive. I wrote my first computer programs over 30 years ago, started online with local BBSs and then eWorld and then the internet. If I were typing this in slack, this is where the first :facepalm: emoji would appear. This is the mentality that caused the now-semi-famous HN post in the early days of dropbox, arguing that it was useless because with a combination of [ simple CLI tools that nontechnical people have never even heard of ], you could create the "same" functionality. Say it with me: Being so simple that utterly nontechnical people can use (edit: not just 'use', but 'deploy and administer') IS important functionality. That's what made Dropbox, and it's what's made Slack. You don't have to be an IT pro to deploy it successfully. You don't have to be a programmer. You just click half a dozen buttons, all of which are helpfully color coded so that your unwillingness to read any text on the screen won't be an obstacle. Yes, there are things you lose when you "build infrastructure out of walled gardens" -- but the reason some people prefer cathedrals vs bazaars is that they often have much lower barriers to entry, and for many people that is a worthwhile tradeoff.
- simplify 9y ago
  What mentality are you talking about? That so-called falepalm-worthy quote is just them describing their experience. You're reading way too much into this. > the reason some people prefer cathedrals vs bazaars is that they often have much lower barriers to entry There's nothing inherit about these "cathedrals" that require them to be walled gardens. Slack could have been an open protocol, but they decided not to be.
  - sushid 9y ago
    Just curious, don't you think it'd be much harder to justify their valuation if it's just an open protocol?
    - sangnoir 9y ago
s73v3r_ 9y ago
The reason they're shooting down the "been-there-done-that" folks is because the "been-there-done-that" folks, despite having been there and done that, insist on sticking to things like IRC and email, despite constantly seeing this mass dissatisfaction with those tools.
- andrewprock 9y ago
  I'm pretty sure that email and sms represent the lowest common denominator. IRC is a fringe protocol, and while there may be "mass dissatisfaction" with those tools, they are omni-present, and central to most business. The truth is that no closed platform will ever reach the universality that email has. The prevalence of various chat platforms looks like a race to replace sms. At the current rate, there may be no winners, and only losers.
  - _Tev 9y ago
    That is not everything. Otherwise we would be still using physical mail.
- ryandrake 9y ago
  As one of the been-there-done-that crowd, when we see these "new" tools coming out, many of us have this "here we go again" reaction. I'm not a religious person but by damn, the Christian Bible can be relevantly quoted here: What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun. And it gets truer year after year. So much developer time is spent re-inventing wheel after wheel. This time in Java! This time in Python! This time in Electron! This time as a SaaS! This time in the browser! This time with emojis! I fully expect to turn 60 and read about the latest cool new text chat app on the front page of the 2038 version of HN.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
flarg 9y ago
I'm an older fart than you and as my remaining years drift away I just want to get things done and Slack helps with that like irc never did. Despite running Linux at home, I also like Jira, Confluence and MS Project at work for the same reasons. Year of the Linux desktop never happened, KDE semantic desktop never happened, Python in Chrome never happened, Self never took off, Lisp never took off, we're still writing coffee like we did in the 90s. Nothing happened as much as we hoped it would and we have to just go with what we've got. This year I'm dropping Linux at gone and going to Windows, after 15 years.
- petre 9y ago
  Apart from Jira and Confluence, Atlassian also has a team communication product called Stride, which is free to used under certain plans. Are there any advantages to using Slack over Stride? I've heard a lot of people complain how Slack is Electron based and a resource hog.
  - masukomi 9y ago
    slack's desktop client is electron based, and while people may bitch about it they don't actually have to use it. the web ui (which is just shoved in an electron wrapper for the desktop client) lacks a few of the desktop features but nothing major. it's pretty usable for anyone who hates electron.
    - Yhippa 9y ago
      The biggest thing I'm missing is a quick way to switch between groups. Unless there's some kind of shortcut or other thing I'm missing.
      - jacobr1 9y ago
        browser tabs
  - flarg 9y ago
    It totally is a hog; but most of all you miss the tight integration with Jira/Confluence offered by Stride. But then Slack is a cool so it has that going for it

TAForObvReasons 9y ago

> The tech industry as a whole has, over the last decade, adopted an especially frenzied pace that looks an awful lot like someone lost in the woods, freaking out, running in different directions trying to figure out where they've been and where they're supposed to be going. I think there's a simpler explanation: people are trying to find new business models. The old model of individuals paying tens or hundreds of dollars for software is slowly dying, and it's on full display in the iOS app store where even $5 is perceived to be a lot to charge for an app. So we need new models. The rise of SaaS is tied to that shift. in-app purchases and related psychological shenanigans are related to that shift. The SV elders, like Peter Thiel of Palantir, now more than ever seem to favor rent-seeking business models and started selecting for those businesses 5 years ago. To course-correct, someone in technology will have to discover a new business model. I'm personally betting that we'll see a backlash and new models wherein people pay so there is no chance of data harvesting (going back from SaaS to standalone software)

kurthr 9y ago
Yes, when everything from Word, to CAD/CAM, to espionage is being priced on a yearly (soon to be monthly) a la cart SaaS subscription basis, you know that it's all about cash flows and lock-in. As you point out it really started after 2010 and has accelerated since 2015.
unethical_ban 9y ago
Good points, and it doesn't make Slack or anyone else look any better. They aren't doing what they do for the good of communication and long term retention. They are making themselve a single vendor point of failure on purpose, like so many companies have tried and will try to do with their customers. I don't believe there is a dichotomy between IRC and Slack. In fact, Rocket Chat and Mattermost show that locally hosted platforms can be developed openly and serve a similar purpose.

black_puppydog 9y ago

First off, thanks for the reply. I've been going through a bit of deja-vu myself with this. While I came to the "game" quite a bit later than you, I've been stung by the google and facebook xmpp stunts and so I never bought into slack as some sort of new solution to communication "because you can just log in from IRC." So yes, a bunch of "old farts" are a good a necessary corrective in our hype-driven environment. I agree with the assessment that slack is just another walled garden and comes with all the problems those bring. I even agree with the "open protocol, optionally self-hosted" conclusion. I just don't like the conclusion (not explicitely stated by you, but definitely by others) that that open protocol should be IRC and email, and that the UI for them needs to be pure text. Put a bit shorter: the people have chosen between $SLACK over $OLD_STUFF, so if you want to use something open and still sway them then you'll have to change what's on offer vs slack. Converse.js looks like a prime example of doing just that, as does e.g. conversations. I'd much rather we get our shit together and build jabber into something usable and beautiful than go back to IRC and email.

thaumaturgy 9y ago
> I just don't like the conclusion (not explicitely stated by you, but definitely by others) that that open protocol should be IRC and email, and that the UI for them needs to be pure text. I work with a guy like that. I've got a lot of respect for him, but yes, his approach to things causes a lot of headaches for other techs in the company. (He likes to send config files by email ... inline, after gzipping and base64-ing them.) There's a middleground. If more people tried harder to rely on software they could truly own, vs SaaS, it would force more companies to release open source APIs and libraries and all but the crankiest old farts would shut up. I like things to be easy too, but not so much when it bites me in the ass later. Your suggestion for extending jabber seems reasonable.

Mahn 9y ago

The thing is, no one is arguing that propietary and closed is better than public and open. The problem comes when propietary and closed become the "better" option to the masses (faster, easier to use, more user friendly, more available, etc); at that point, you can protest, but average users don't like to give up convenience for ideology, hence on the long run the only way to beat closed and propietary is to have something public and open that can compete.

jaredhansen 9y ago

>Okay, I'll take the bait. I'm about as good a representative sample of the people you're talking about as anyone else. This starts off strong, but then ... >I'm 39. I've been in technology in a professional capacity for 22 years, longer now than perhaps a few folks on HN have been alive. I wrote my first computer programs over 30 years ago, started online with local BBSs and then eWorld and then the internet. If I were typing this in slack, this is where the first :facepalm: emoji would appear. This is the mentality that caused the now-semi-famous HN post in the early days of dropbox, arguing that it was useless because with a combination of [ simple CLI tools that nontechnical people have never even heard of ], you could create the "same" functionality. Say it with me: Being so simple that utterly nontechnical people can use (edit: not just 'use', but 'deploy and administer') IS important functionality. That's what made Dropbox, and it's what's made Slack. You don't have to be an IT pro to deploy it successfully. You don't have to be a programmer. You just click half a dozen buttons, all of which are helpfully color coded so that your unwillingness to read any text on the screen won't be an obstacle. Yes, there are things you lose when you "build infrastructure out of walled gardens" -- but the reason some people prefer cathedrals vs bazaars is that they often have much lower barriers to entry, and for many people that is a worthwhile tradeoff.

simplify 9y ago
What mentality are you talking about? That so-called falepalm-worthy quote is just them describing their experience. You're reading way too much into this. > the reason some people prefer cathedrals vs bazaars is that they often have much lower barriers to entry There's nothing inherit about these "cathedrals" that require them to be walled gardens. Slack could have been an open protocol, but they decided not to be.
- sushid 9y ago
  Just curious, don't you think it'd be much harder to justify their valuation if it's just an open protocol?
  - sangnoir 9y ago

s73v3r_ 9y ago

The reason they're shooting down the "been-there-done-that" folks is because the "been-there-done-that" folks, despite having been there and done that, insist on sticking to things like IRC and email, despite constantly seeing this mass dissatisfaction with those tools.

andrewprock 9y ago
I'm pretty sure that email and sms represent the lowest common denominator. IRC is a fringe protocol, and while there may be "mass dissatisfaction" with those tools, they are omni-present, and central to most business. The truth is that no closed platform will ever reach the universality that email has. The prevalence of various chat platforms looks like a race to replace sms. At the current rate, there may be no winners, and only losers.
- _Tev 9y ago
  That is not everything. Otherwise we would be still using physical mail.
ryandrake 9y ago
As one of the been-there-done-that crowd, when we see these "new" tools coming out, many of us have this "here we go again" reaction. I'm not a religious person but by damn, the Christian Bible can be relevantly quoted here: What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun. And it gets truer year after year. So much developer time is spent re-inventing wheel after wheel. This time in Java! This time in Python! This time in Electron! This time as a SaaS! This time in the browser! This time with emojis! I fully expect to turn 60 and read about the latest cool new text chat app on the front page of the 2038 version of HN.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

flarg 9y ago

I'm an older fart than you and as my remaining years drift away I just want to get things done and Slack helps with that like irc never did. Despite running Linux at home, I also like Jira, Confluence and MS Project at work for the same reasons. Year of the Linux desktop never happened, KDE semantic desktop never happened, Python in Chrome never happened, Self never took off, Lisp never took off, we're still writing coffee like we did in the 90s. Nothing happened as much as we hoped it would and we have to just go with what we've got. This year I'm dropping Linux at gone and going to Windows, after 15 years.

petre 9y ago
Apart from Jira and Confluence, Atlassian also has a team communication product called Stride, which is free to used under certain plans. Are there any advantages to using Slack over Stride? I've heard a lot of people complain how Slack is Electron based and a resource hog.
- masukomi 9y ago
  slack's desktop client is electron based, and while people may bitch about it they don't actually have to use it. the web ui (which is just shoved in an electron wrapper for the desktop client) lacks a few of the desktop features but nothing major. it's pretty usable for anyone who hates electron.
  - Yhippa 9y ago
    The biggest thing I'm missing is a quick way to switch between groups. Unless there's some kind of shortcut or other thing I'm missing.
    - jacobr1 9y ago
      browser tabs
- flarg 9y ago
  It totally is a hog; but most of all you miss the tight integration with Jira/Confluence offered by Stride. But then Slack is a cool so it has that going for it