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“Their reasons for remaining gun-free revolved around some loosely held concept of honor,” Beck says. “Being able to move your finger on a trigger is not really

“Their reasons for remaining gun-free revolved around some loosely held concept of honor,” Beck says. “Being able to move your finger on a trigger is not really a skill that wows anyone.” I find this mindset is reflected in a lot of manga produced in Japan. Heroes are often paired with swords: Rurouni Kenshin, Inu Yasha, and Bleach to name a few.

krapp 9y ago
And yet (as I hear) the Samurai they emulate considered their bows to be their primary weapon, and their spears their secondary weapon, and considered it a disgrace to ever need to draw their sword. They also used guns when they became available. They were soldiers and mercenaries, after all.
- tantalor 9y ago
  Those old guns were probably a lot harder to use than a modern handgun or rifle
  - jcranmer 9y ago
    The guns of the Gunpowder Age are generally some variant of the arquebus, matchlock, flintlock, or musket (the terms are generally interchangeable). The key early innovations in that era were the development of the triggered mechanism (originally a smoldering piece of rope, aka a match, later a piece of flint that sparks when struck), the stock for stability, and the long barrel for sighting. The developments that led since then to the modern gun are breech loading, the Minié ball, magazine-fed ammunition, paper and later metal cartridges, rifling, smokeless powder, and the automatic firing mechanism. With the exception of the paper cartridge, all of these technologies were developed in the latter half of the 19th century. Simply put, pre-American Civil War guns were tactically very different in operation from 20th and 21st century guns. As an aside, this is why WWI was so bloody: generals were trying to fight a war with 20th century guns and 18th century tactics.
- PhasmaFelis 9y ago
  Of course manga heroes are more about romantic ideals than historical accuracy, but even so, you can't really generalize about all samurai any more than you can generalize about all European knights. The samurai class existed in one form or another for around a millennium. I rather doubt that they all considered it a "disgrace" to draw their sword.
  - PakG1 9y ago
    If it was a disgrace to draw the sword, I imagine that swordsmanship and sword styles would not be so highly regarded, and there wouldn't have been entire dojos devoted to specific styles. If that were really the case, I imagine there would have been more dojos devoted to archery and spear styles, and those would have been held in higher regard than sword styles. Perhaps that actually was the case, but "popular" historical accounts seem to say otherwise?
  - krapp 9y ago
    >The samurai class existed in one form or another for around a millennium. I rather doubt that they all considered it a "disgrace" to draw their sword. That's fair. I was just trying to imply that the samurai (and Western cowboy, and European knight, and even modern yakuza and mafia) all present a romantic facade in popular culture that wasn't and isn't necessarily reflected in practical reality. Apparently even the concept of Bushido is a cultural retcon[0,1] as is, almost everything related to ninja[2,3]. Some young Japanese hoodlums might buy into the hype, but I don't necessarily trust that anecdata as a basis to make some general statement about Japanese culture mistrusting guns because they're less honorable. [0]https://www.tofugu.com/japan/bushido/ https://www.tofugu.com/japan/bushido/ [1]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11990721 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11990721 [2]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-UePD6Wp5A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-UePD6Wp5A [3]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR43l77jlpY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR43l77jlpY
- solidsnack9000 9y ago
  What these gangs are doing is closer to single combat than to war, as it is about proving oneself. In most societies, the manners around single combat place much greater emphasis on what is honorable than what is effective, and in that regard Japan is not exceptional.
- scythe 9y ago
  Projectiles are obviously more effective in a large battle, as demonstrated notably by Khan, G et al 1209, 1215, 1221, etc.
- novembermike 9y ago
  Depends on the era. By the time they were adopting guns most of the Samurai had given up bows. Most Samurai were spearmen, with Ashigaru typically being the bowmen.
brownbat 9y ago
It's not wholly unique to Japan. In retellings of the Trojan War, Ajax's bow is used to make him look less honorable than the swordsmen he kills. It's basically technophobia. Usually a dangerous bias, but if we can harness it to prevent people from shooting each other, maybe that's the upside.
- ethbro 9y ago
  I'd say the dishonorable bow is less technophobia and more class-phobia. The idea that a peasant could murder an armored nobleman with a lucky shot? Inconceivable!
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- jcranmer 9y ago
  Bows were invented millennia before swords were. The earliest bows we have dated go back 10kya, and we suspect they date even earlier. Advancements like recurve and composite bows date to at least 4kya. By contrast, the earliest swords date back to around 3-4kya, late Bronze Age, and the important advances (most notably, capable steel production) that make swords effective weapons really date to only around late Antiquity and Early Medieval.
- ColanR 9y ago
  That's quite a leap - dishonor of an easy shot equated with fear of new weapons? I think a source is needed.
dangero 9y ago
You actually see this in mixed martial arts as well where Japanese fighters often refuse to cut weight and instead fight at their natural weight. For those who are unaware in MMA everything is done by weight classes. If you fight at 155, you need to stand on a scale and weigh 155 or less the day before the fight. Most fighters tend to start at a much higher wight and cut all the water out of their system in the days before. Once they officially weigh in, they rehydrate which makes them much heavier by fight day. A lot of fighters cut more than 20 pounds leading up to a fight, so you can imagine what a disadvantage a fighter is at who fights at their natural weight.

krapp 9y ago

And yet (as I hear) the Samurai they emulate considered their bows to be their primary weapon, and their spears their secondary weapon, and considered it a disgrace to ever need to draw their sword. They also used guns when they became available. They were soldiers and mercenaries, after all.

tantalor 9y ago
Those old guns were probably a lot harder to use than a modern handgun or rifle
- jcranmer 9y ago
  The guns of the Gunpowder Age are generally some variant of the arquebus, matchlock, flintlock, or musket (the terms are generally interchangeable). The key early innovations in that era were the development of the triggered mechanism (originally a smoldering piece of rope, aka a match, later a piece of flint that sparks when struck), the stock for stability, and the long barrel for sighting. The developments that led since then to the modern gun are breech loading, the Minié ball, magazine-fed ammunition, paper and later metal cartridges, rifling, smokeless powder, and the automatic firing mechanism. With the exception of the paper cartridge, all of these technologies were developed in the latter half of the 19th century. Simply put, pre-American Civil War guns were tactically very different in operation from 20th and 21st century guns. As an aside, this is why WWI was so bloody: generals were trying to fight a war with 20th century guns and 18th century tactics.
PhasmaFelis 9y ago
Of course manga heroes are more about romantic ideals than historical accuracy, but even so, you can't really generalize about all samurai any more than you can generalize about all European knights. The samurai class existed in one form or another for around a millennium. I rather doubt that they all considered it a "disgrace" to draw their sword.
- PakG1 9y ago
  If it was a disgrace to draw the sword, I imagine that swordsmanship and sword styles would not be so highly regarded, and there wouldn't have been entire dojos devoted to specific styles. If that were really the case, I imagine there would have been more dojos devoted to archery and spear styles, and those would have been held in higher regard than sword styles. Perhaps that actually was the case, but "popular" historical accounts seem to say otherwise?
- krapp 9y ago
  >The samurai class existed in one form or another for around a millennium. I rather doubt that they all considered it a "disgrace" to draw their sword. That's fair. I was just trying to imply that the samurai (and Western cowboy, and European knight, and even modern yakuza and mafia) all present a romantic facade in popular culture that wasn't and isn't necessarily reflected in practical reality. Apparently even the concept of Bushido is a cultural retcon[0,1] as is, almost everything related to ninja[2,3]. Some young Japanese hoodlums might buy into the hype, but I don't necessarily trust that anecdata as a basis to make some general statement about Japanese culture mistrusting guns because they're less honorable. [0]https://www.tofugu.com/japan/bushido/ https://www.tofugu.com/japan/bushido/ [1]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11990721 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11990721 [2]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-UePD6Wp5A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-UePD6Wp5A [3]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR43l77jlpY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR43l77jlpY
solidsnack9000 9y ago
What these gangs are doing is closer to single combat than to war, as it is about proving oneself. In most societies, the manners around single combat place much greater emphasis on what is honorable than what is effective, and in that regard Japan is not exceptional.
scythe 9y ago
Projectiles are obviously more effective in a large battle, as demonstrated notably by Khan, G et al 1209, 1215, 1221, etc.
novembermike 9y ago
Depends on the era. By the time they were adopting guns most of the Samurai had given up bows. Most Samurai were spearmen, with Ashigaru typically being the bowmen.

brownbat 9y ago

It's not wholly unique to Japan. In retellings of the Trojan War, Ajax's bow is used to make him look less honorable than the swordsmen he kills. It's basically technophobia. Usually a dangerous bias, but if we can harness it to prevent people from shooting each other, maybe that's the upside.

ethbro 9y ago
I'd say the dishonorable bow is less technophobia and more class-phobia. The idea that a peasant could murder an armored nobleman with a lucky shot? Inconceivable!
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
jcranmer 9y ago
Bows were invented millennia before swords were. The earliest bows we have dated go back 10kya, and we suspect they date even earlier. Advancements like recurve and composite bows date to at least 4kya. By contrast, the earliest swords date back to around 3-4kya, late Bronze Age, and the important advances (most notably, capable steel production) that make swords effective weapons really date to only around late Antiquity and Early Medieval.
ColanR 9y ago
That's quite a leap - dishonor of an easy shot equated with fear of new weapons? I think a source is needed.

dangero 9y ago

You actually see this in mixed martial arts as well where Japanese fighters often refuse to cut weight and instead fight at their natural weight. For those who are unaware in MMA everything is done by weight classes. If you fight at 155, you need to stand on a scale and weigh 155 or less the day before the fight. Most fighters tend to start at a much higher wight and cut all the water out of their system in the days before. Once they officially weigh in, they rehydrate which makes them much heavier by fight day. A lot of fighters cut more than 20 pounds leading up to a fight, so you can imagine what a disadvantage a fighter is at who fights at their natural weight.