4 ms·

I don't think it answers my question. There is an implication that selling a product designed for privacy and secure communication is inherently intending to fa

I don't think it answers my question. There is an implication that selling a product designed for privacy and secure communication is inherently intending to facilitate criminal activity. At what point is the line crossed? There are products with seemingly fewer 'legitimate' uses that don't appear to cross this line such as lock picks, police radar detectors, miniature surveillance equipment, etc. I'm genuinely curious what the legal basis for determining when selling a legal product with a legal function becomes illegal is. It can't be merely knowingly selling to a suspected criminal. Is it knowingly selling to a suspected criminal who you expect to use it to evade law enforcement? How is that to be established other than through dubious entrapment activities as seem to have been used here?

landryraccoon 9y ago
The article answers this question: > “We made it—we made it specifically for this [drug trafficking] too,” Ramos told undercover agents, according to a transcript included in the complaint. You can't say that you intended to make the device for legal uses if you explicitly tell an undercover cop you intended it to be used for illegal purposes. So to answer your question, if you openly confess that the intent of your device is to be used illegally, that's a smoking gun.
- mattnewport 9y ago
  No, it still doesn't answer my question. For one, this is the part that looks a lot like entrapment. Putting that aside, it doesn't logically follow that what is effectively a sales pitch about a use of the product for coordinating illegal activity implies that that was the primary intent of the product. The "too" in the quote from the transcript is important there. It implies that there was a primary use case (presumably legal private communication) but that they considered the use case under discussion too. It's not even clear when the use of the product in this case becomes illegal. Merely using a secure device for encrypted communication is not illegal. If that communication involves planning criminal acts then presumably the parties communicating can be charged with conspiracy but since these were encrypted communications does evidence for that actually exist? Communication does not become criminal merely because it is engaged in by criminals, they have to actually be conspiring to commit a crime and in the case of non drug offenses they have to actually take steps to commit that crime in the US. Car companies specifically design their cars to be able to exceed legal speed limits. Does that make them liable when drivers break speed limits?
  - fmj 9y ago
    >Car companies specifically design their cars to be able to exceed legal speed limits. Does that make them liable when drivers break speed limits? They're not being charged with creating an illegal phone, they being charged with conspiracy to import a controlled substance. Making an encrypted phone is perfectly legal, it became a conspiracy when they agreed to tamper with evidence for a client who had already stated they intend to use their service for drug trafficking communications (which was explicitly acknowledged.) All they had to do was make it clear to their customers that they didn't want to know the details of what they were using the phones to discuss, and refuse to do business with anyone who mentions illegal activity to them. >For one, this is the part that looks a lot like entrapment. How so? The undercover agents asked if they could use the service to communicate about drugs (implying that's what they would use it for) and the company agreed. The agents then asked them to wipe a phone that had been captured by the police and the company knowingly tampered with evidence on their behalf. Merely providing someone with an opportunity to participate in a crime isn't entrapment.
    - mattnewport 9y ago
      From reading the complaint conspiracy seems like a stretch. There is in general no legal obligation to report a crime that you suspect has been or will be committed. Part of their service is to wipe phones on request. They had no subpoena to preserve evidence and no legal obligation to report suspected illegal activity. Perhaps tampering with evidence or obstruction of justice applies here, it will be interesting to see the outcome of the case. Again from reading the complaint it looks like entrapment. Most of what they quote looks analogous to a car company saying their car is very fast and then an undercover cop asking if that means it's fast enough to outrun the police if they use it as a getaway vehicle. Confirming that factually yes it would be seems some way short of conspiracy. No "real" crime is committed in answering such questions truthfully. Creating a conspiracy charge out of those answers looks like a stretch to me.
      - 1024core 9y ago
        > From reading the complaint conspiracy seems like a stretch. This "conspiracy" charge is what Law Enforcement uses when they have nothing else.
caf 9y ago
Presumably it is based on a totality of the circumstances rather than a single "this act crossed the line". For example the apparent efforts to limit their customer base to only criminals would not play well.
jstarfish 9y ago
> implication that selling a product designed for privacy and secure communication is inherently intending to facilitate criminal activity. At what point is the line crossed? There are products with seemingly fewer 'legitimate' uses that don't appear to cross this line such as lock picks, police radar detectors, miniature surveillance equipment, etc. The legal basis depends on the country. But in general, that line is always crossed when you market your product for the purposes of facilitating criminal activity. Distancing yourself from the consequences of the illegal activities performed with your product becomes much more difficult. That he knew about, actively participated in and marketed the platform for drug trafficking was a large part of what damned the Silk Road op-- he couldn't (successfully) make the "b-b-but I was just running a website!" defense. There's a behavioral aspect to it too though. The idea is one that you can sell a box of armor-piercing rounds to a civilian and he'll use them lawfully, to go shoot up some pesky armored deer or abandoned cars or something. But if you specifically sell him "cop killer"-branded bullets, you're giving him the idea that this is an acceptable use for the product. We don't want that in society.

landryraccoon 9y ago

The article answers this question: > “We made it—we made it specifically for this [drug trafficking] too,” Ramos told undercover agents, according to a transcript included in the complaint. You can't say that you intended to make the device for legal uses if you explicitly tell an undercover cop you intended it to be used for illegal purposes. So to answer your question, if you openly confess that the intent of your device is to be used illegally, that's a smoking gun.

mattnewport 9y ago
No, it still doesn't answer my question. For one, this is the part that looks a lot like entrapment. Putting that aside, it doesn't logically follow that what is effectively a sales pitch about a use of the product for coordinating illegal activity implies that that was the primary intent of the product. The "too" in the quote from the transcript is important there. It implies that there was a primary use case (presumably legal private communication) but that they considered the use case under discussion too. It's not even clear when the use of the product in this case becomes illegal. Merely using a secure device for encrypted communication is not illegal. If that communication involves planning criminal acts then presumably the parties communicating can be charged with conspiracy but since these were encrypted communications does evidence for that actually exist? Communication does not become criminal merely because it is engaged in by criminals, they have to actually be conspiring to commit a crime and in the case of non drug offenses they have to actually take steps to commit that crime in the US. Car companies specifically design their cars to be able to exceed legal speed limits. Does that make them liable when drivers break speed limits?
- fmj 9y ago
  >Car companies specifically design their cars to be able to exceed legal speed limits. Does that make them liable when drivers break speed limits? They're not being charged with creating an illegal phone, they being charged with conspiracy to import a controlled substance. Making an encrypted phone is perfectly legal, it became a conspiracy when they agreed to tamper with evidence for a client who had already stated they intend to use their service for drug trafficking communications (which was explicitly acknowledged.) All they had to do was make it clear to their customers that they didn't want to know the details of what they were using the phones to discuss, and refuse to do business with anyone who mentions illegal activity to them. >For one, this is the part that looks a lot like entrapment. How so? The undercover agents asked if they could use the service to communicate about drugs (implying that's what they would use it for) and the company agreed. The agents then asked them to wipe a phone that had been captured by the police and the company knowingly tampered with evidence on their behalf. Merely providing someone with an opportunity to participate in a crime isn't entrapment.
  - mattnewport 9y ago
    From reading the complaint conspiracy seems like a stretch. There is in general no legal obligation to report a crime that you suspect has been or will be committed. Part of their service is to wipe phones on request. They had no subpoena to preserve evidence and no legal obligation to report suspected illegal activity. Perhaps tampering with evidence or obstruction of justice applies here, it will be interesting to see the outcome of the case. Again from reading the complaint it looks like entrapment. Most of what they quote looks analogous to a car company saying their car is very fast and then an undercover cop asking if that means it's fast enough to outrun the police if they use it as a getaway vehicle. Confirming that factually yes it would be seems some way short of conspiracy. No "real" crime is committed in answering such questions truthfully. Creating a conspiracy charge out of those answers looks like a stretch to me.
    - 1024core 9y ago
      > From reading the complaint conspiracy seems like a stretch. This "conspiracy" charge is what Law Enforcement uses when they have nothing else.

caf 9y ago

Presumably it is based on a totality of the circumstances rather than a single "this act crossed the line". For example the apparent efforts to limit their customer base to only criminals would not play well.

jstarfish 9y ago

> implication that selling a product designed for privacy and secure communication is inherently intending to facilitate criminal activity. At what point is the line crossed? There are products with seemingly fewer 'legitimate' uses that don't appear to cross this line such as lock picks, police radar detectors, miniature surveillance equipment, etc. The legal basis depends on the country. But in general, that line is always crossed when you market your product for the purposes of facilitating criminal activity. Distancing yourself from the consequences of the illegal activities performed with your product becomes much more difficult. That he knew about, actively participated in and marketed the platform for drug trafficking was a large part of what damned the Silk Road op-- he couldn't (successfully) make the "b-b-but I was just running a website!" defense. There's a behavioral aspect to it too though. The idea is one that you can sell a box of armor-piercing rounds to a civilian and he'll use them lawfully, to go shoot up some pesky armored deer or abandoned cars or something. But if you specifically sell him "cop killer"-branded bullets, you're giving him the idea that this is an acceptable use for the product. We don't want that in society.