9 ms·

A 1980s study on juvenile crime in Japan sheds light on American gun culture

101 points by curtis 9y ago

posix_compliant 9y ago
“Their reasons for remaining gun-free revolved around some loosely held concept of honor,” Beck says. “Being able to move your finger on a trigger is not really a skill that wows anyone.” I find this mindset is reflected in a lot of manga produced in Japan. Heroes are often paired with swords: Rurouni Kenshin, Inu Yasha, and Bleach to name a few.
- krapp 9y ago
  And yet (as I hear) the Samurai they emulate considered their bows to be their primary weapon, and their spears their secondary weapon, and considered it a disgrace to ever need to draw their sword. They also used guns when they became available. They were soldiers and mercenaries, after all.
  - tantalor 9y ago
    Those old guns were probably a lot harder to use than a modern handgun or rifle
    - jcranmer 9y ago
      The guns of the Gunpowder Age are generally some variant of the arquebus, matchlock, flintlock, or musket (the terms are generally interchangeable). The key early innovations in that era were the development of the triggered mechanism (originally a smoldering piece of rope, aka a match, later a piece of flint that sparks when struck), the stock for stability, and the long barrel for sighting. The developments that led since then to the modern gun are breech loading, the Minié ball, magazine-fed ammunition, paper and later metal cartridges, rifling, smokeless powder, and the automatic firing mechanism. With the exception of the paper cartridge, all of these technologies were developed in the latter half of the 19th century. Simply put, pre-American Civil War guns were tactically very different in operation from 20th and 21st century guns. As an aside, this is why WWI was so bloody: generals were trying to fight a war with 20th century guns and 18th century tactics.
  - PhasmaFelis 9y ago
    Of course manga heroes are more about romantic ideals than historical accuracy, but even so, you can't really generalize about all samurai any more than you can generalize about all European knights. The samurai class existed in one form or another for around a millennium. I rather doubt that they all considered it a "disgrace" to draw their sword.
    - PakG1 9y ago
      If it was a disgrace to draw the sword, I imagine that swordsmanship and sword styles would not be so highly regarded, and there wouldn't have been entire dojos devoted to specific styles. If that were really the case, I imagine there would have been more dojos devoted to archery and spear styles, and those would have been held in higher regard than sword styles. Perhaps that actually was the case, but "popular" historical accounts seem to say otherwise?
    - krapp 9y ago
      >The samurai class existed in one form or another for around a millennium. I rather doubt that they all considered it a "disgrace" to draw their sword. That's fair. I was just trying to imply that the samurai (and Western cowboy, and European knight, and even modern yakuza and mafia) all present a romantic facade in popular culture that wasn't and isn't necessarily reflected in practical reality. Apparently even the concept of Bushido is a cultural retcon[0,1] as is, almost everything related to ninja[2,3]. Some young Japanese hoodlums might buy into the hype, but I don't necessarily trust that anecdata as a basis to make some general statement about Japanese culture mistrusting guns because they're less honorable. [0]https://www.tofugu.com/japan/bushido/ https://www.tofugu.com/japan/bushido/ [1]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11990721 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11990721 [2]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-UePD6Wp5A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-UePD6Wp5A [3]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR43l77jlpY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR43l77jlpY
  - solidsnack9000 9y ago
    What these gangs are doing is closer to single combat than to war, as it is about proving oneself. In most societies, the manners around single combat place much greater emphasis on what is honorable than what is effective, and in that regard Japan is not exceptional.
  - scythe 9y ago
    Projectiles are obviously more effective in a large battle, as demonstrated notably by Khan, G et al 1209, 1215, 1221, etc.
  - novembermike 9y ago
    Depends on the era. By the time they were adopting guns most of the Samurai had given up bows. Most Samurai were spearmen, with Ashigaru typically being the bowmen.
- brownbat 9y ago
  It's not wholly unique to Japan. In retellings of the Trojan War, Ajax's bow is used to make him look less honorable than the swordsmen he kills. It's basically technophobia. Usually a dangerous bias, but if we can harness it to prevent people from shooting each other, maybe that's the upside.
  - ethbro 9y ago
    I'd say the dishonorable bow is less technophobia and more class-phobia. The idea that a peasant could murder an armored nobleman with a lucky shot? Inconceivable!
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - jcranmer 9y ago
    Bows were invented millennia before swords were. The earliest bows we have dated go back 10kya, and we suspect they date even earlier. Advancements like recurve and composite bows date to at least 4kya. By contrast, the earliest swords date back to around 3-4kya, late Bronze Age, and the important advances (most notably, capable steel production) that make swords effective weapons really date to only around late Antiquity and Early Medieval.
  - ColanR 9y ago
    That's quite a leap - dishonor of an easy shot equated with fear of new weapons? I think a source is needed.
- dangero 9y ago
  You actually see this in mixed martial arts as well where Japanese fighters often refuse to cut weight and instead fight at their natural weight. For those who are unaware in MMA everything is done by weight classes. If you fight at 155, you need to stand on a scale and weigh 155 or less the day before the fight. Most fighters tend to start at a much higher wight and cut all the water out of their system in the days before. Once they officially weigh in, they rehydrate which makes them much heavier by fight day. A lot of fighters cut more than 20 pounds leading up to a fight, so you can imagine what a disadvantage a fighter is at who fights at their natural weight.
JepZ 9y ago
So in Japan you are the cool kid when you come with a knife to a gun fight ;-) I like that attitude.
- m3kw9 9y ago
  In Japan, the person with the gun would be known as bringing a gun to a knife fight.
  - notyourwork 9y ago
    He/she would also probably be known as undefeated.
    - DoreenMichele 9y ago
      There are no places to practice. From what I gather, even Japanese Yakuza cannot hit the broad side of a barn.
      - Cyph0n 9y ago
        Japan is small, but I'm sure there are still plenty of uninhabited natural areas. Just setup a few cans and fire away.
        DoreenMichele 9y ago
        If they wanted to make it realistic, he'd pull out a gun and shoot it and miss! Or the damn thing wouldn't fire. That would be realistic. (They all laugh). https://boingboing.net/2010/08/10/yakuza-3-review.html https://boingboing.net/2010/08/10/yakuza-3-review.html
      - halbritt 9y ago
        Japan produced an IPSC champion some years back. In Japan, he trained exclusively with an airsoft pistol and only ever fired a gun when he came to the US to compete.
dahdum 9y ago
This conclusion is based on remembered anecdote from 35 years ago...bit shaky to make firm statements based on that. Edit: Unless I'm missing something basic here? I don't see any reference or link to the "study on juvenile crime" the article title references.
- seabird 9y ago
  It is indeed anecdotal, but gang violence is hugely influenced by the culture of the nation it's taking place in. Brash, unabashed outlaws have been romanticized in American culture since its very beginning, and firearms have always been a part of the American gunslinger mythos. Other nations facing organized crime with access to firearms don't necessarily have the same issues.
aaronbrethorst 9y ago
The retired cop then noted that even the yakuza don’t like to use guns these days — because the penalties are too high...One mid-level yakuza boss told me, “Having a gun now is like having a time bomb. Do you think any sane person wants to keep one around the house?” https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2013/01/06/national/media-national/even-gangsters-live-in-fear-of-japans-gun-laws/ https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2013/01/06/national/media-...
- s_m_t 9y ago
  In certain cities in the United States going to jail for shooting and killing someone is something of a networking retreat for criminals. You plead down to manslaughter and may serve less than 3 years. Great way to jumpstart your career and gain credibility on the streets.
  - jMyles 9y ago
    I need to see some evidence of these claims. I doubt that prison is materially similar to a "networking retreat". Are people really pleading down to manslaughter, after literally shooting and killing someone, and serving less than 3 years?
    - ggg9990 9y ago
      The large numbers of prison gangs is evidence of the networking function. And in gang ridden neighborhoods most murders aren’t even solved, and 3 years happens regularly, because of the low evidence an lack of witness cooperation causing prosecutors to cut plea bargains.
      - forapurpose 9y ago
        I agree with the GP; I'd need to see some evidence. > in gang ridden neighborhoods Gangs are no longer a problem in most American cities, afaik. It's a obsolete myth in the minds of people who never step foot in poor and working-class urban neighborhoods, but they see lots of TV and movies.
ggm 9y ago
Back in the early 2000s I visited Kitakyushu. From my hotel window around midnight, to 1am I witnessed some local hoodlums rev their car engine loudly, and then "run away" being chased by police in a car. The chase went around the square once and then peeled off to .. a red traffic light. Both hoodlums and police stopped at the red light, and sat there until the light turned green before resuming their "chase" at approximately 20km/h. I think they got away. Very slowly. TL;DR yes youth culture is quite different around the world
- patientplatypus 9y ago
  This is one of the most Japanese stories I have ever read.
letientai299 9y ago
This article remind me of the series movies "Crows Zero"about high school students fight each other to become the leader, and also fight other school's students. They only use bare hand. Weapon do appears, but very unlikely. There's also a scene that an the "oyabun" (absolute leader of a yakuza clan) use gun to kill one man who did not complete a mission, but instead of shooting into his head, the oyabun gave the man his coat, and shoot to the back. It turns out that the coat is bullet proof, and the oyabun actually allow that man to live a normal life thereafter. Watching that movie make me absolutely want to fight someone with my bare hand (I know I shouldn't).
- miketery 9y ago
  I highly recommend trying out BJJ (Brazilian Jiu Jitsu). Not only is it physically and mentally stimulating (I like to refer to it as physical chess), it also makes you appreciate how vulnerable you are, and by extension why to avoid physical altercation at nearly all costs. An added bonus is that you'll be able to defend your self against most people.
- minikomi 9y ago
  This movie is almost certainly a throwback to the 70s~80s "tsuppari"[0] style movies like Bebop High School[1] [0] https://www.google.co.jp/search?q=%E3%83%84%E3%83%83%E3%83%91%E3%83%AA&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiO_duz3uXZAhWCv7wKHRMDC8YQ_AUICigB&biw=1280&bih=1343 https://www.google.co.jp/search?q=%E3%83%84%E3%83%83%E3%83%9... [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFTVfAHHfIs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFTVfAHHfIs
- mirimir 9y ago
  I love Takashi Miike! The fighting in "Crows Zero" is extremely cartoonish. So is the fighting in "Izo", but it's rather dark.
a_bonobo 9y ago
I should quote from an older book called 'Confessions of a Yakuza', on the Yakuza from about 80 years ago, it's just so fitting: >The real reason why the police set him up, of course, was to improve the district’s anti-crime record. Sometime after I left jail—around 1938, I suppose it would have been—I had just the same kind of trouble myself at my joint in Uguisudani. Told me, in just the same way, to hand in my guns. This particular detective came straight from the Metropolitan Police Board—the very top. I expect they’d been tipped off that some yakuza somewhere had got hold of a few pistols, so they planned to make a clean sweep. But there weren’t any in my place to begin with, and there was nothing I could do. >So they told me to produce some even if I had to buy them. It was way out of line, but if I’d gone on insisting I didn’t have any, I’d have ended up the same as Kan-chan, so I got a brother to buy me a couple at three hundred and fifty yen apiece. That was enough to buy a house with in those days, but I couldn’t afford to think about that. >I turned them in to the police immediately. “Good work,” they said—and that was the last I heard about it: no letter of thanks, and no punishment, either....
- warent 9y ago
  I'm glad there was no punishment, but wow, that's such a crazy and unfair situation to find yourself in.
Lazare 9y ago
Interesting fact: Firearms were present in Japan beginning in the 13th century, but saw little adoption. In 1543, the Portuguese introduced matchlock firearms, a much more impressive weapon, and Japan embraced them. They began manufacturing them in great numbers, researching firearms technology, and fielding armies equipped with firearms, which they used to great effect. In 1592 a Japanese force invaded Korea and rapidly captured Seoul, in large part due to the presence of an estimated 40k gunners in the force. It's estimated Japan may have led the world during this period in firearm production, and surviving written records suggest they saw firearms very positively. ...then, they stopped. There's an excellent book about it called "Giving Up The Gun" (https://www.amazon.com/Giving-Up-Gun-Reversion-1543-1879/dp/0879237732 https://www.amazon.com/Giving-Up-Gun-Reversion-1543-1879/dp/...) There's no super clear explanation; the answer mostly seems to be a vague hand-wavy nod towards "cultural reasons". But, obviously, those cultural reasons didn't seem to apply prior to the Edo period, when Japan went all-in on firearms, arguably more so than any European country. Odd.
- yongjik 9y ago
  I'm not a historian, but I think "the period of war" is a nice explanation: > The Sengoku period (戦国時代 Sengoku Jidai, "Age of Warring States"; c. 1467 – c. 1603) is a period in Japanese history marked by social upheaval, political intrigue and near-constant military conflict. Japanese historians named it after the otherwise unrelated Warring States period in China. It was initiated by the Ōnin War, which collapsed the Japanese feudal system under the Ashikaga shogunate, and came to an end when the system was re-established under the Tokugawa shogunate by Tokugawa Ieyasu. So, after the period of war ended and the Tokugawa Shogunate was established, the "Bakufu" clearly did not want millions of unemployed soldiers hanging around with guns. (I heard even the invasion on Korea was conceived as a means of keeping soldiers and lesser feudal lords busy, though I'm not sure how widely it is believed.)
  - Lazare 9y ago
    It's a plausible argument I suppose. And Europe never went through a comparable period of peace and unification (at any rate prior to the present day), so it sort of makes sense that Europe stuck with its guns and Japan did not. And yet it still raises questions. It happened very suddenly as these things go (over a few years or decades, rather than centuries), and seems to have been accompanied by a deep, long-lasting cultural shift. Even after Japanese isolation ended in the mid 19th century, there didn't seem to be any real reversion (hence, indirectly, the originally linked article). If the establishment of the Tokugawa Shogunate was enough to make Japan give up the gun, why was it's collapse not enough to make Japan re-embrace it? If the answer is "unique Japanese culture", why was it not present at the start of the Sengoku period? It's not like the Sengoku period was just way more violent than the 1850-1950 period. Anyhow, the book I linked (which I last read over 10 years ago, so I'm a bit fuzzy on some of the details) goes into a lot more detail, digging through historical records and evaluating most of the obvious theories. I highly recommend it!
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sametmax 9y ago
Well, there is another thing as well: is it legal and easy to get a gun in Japan as a person ? Because I get that a gang use guns in the US, where it's quite easy to get your hands on one. But in France, while some criminals do have guns, it's not that common. It's not only hard to get a gun but it would also almost always considered like a sure tell something fishy is going on. Having a gun, unless you can conceal it very well and not be noticed when you use it, is a great way to get busted.
- SlowRobotAhead 9y ago
  You know guns are legal outside of Paris and you can buy silencers over the counter right? The most serious restriction on guns in France is you can only own two at any time that accept military calibers. So 9x19mm, bad, but 9x21mm A-OK.
  - sametmax 9y ago
    You need to practice at a shooting range with professional to even get access to a simple gun. A process that is hardly as casual as this: http://money.cnn.com/2015/06/19/news/guns-background-checks/index.html http://money.cnn.com/2015/06/19/news/guns-background-checks/... And come on, if you get an FFL licence, you can even get a silencer or a machine gun as a normal citizen. The difficulty is not even on the same scale.
    - DrScump 9y ago
      And come on, if you get an FFL licence It became very difficult to get an FFL without having an actual storefront, or being a gunsmith, starting with the Clinton administration. you can even get a silencer or a machine gun as a normal citizen That's flat false. Being a conventional FFL doesn't bestow any access to any NFA weapons.
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UncleEntity 9y ago
I can't even count the times I've heard of someone getting into a bar fight and not being content to get their ass kicked "like a man" proceed to get a gun out of their car and shoot like six innocent people trying to get back at the person who did the ass kicking. It's a cultural thing methinks...
- masonic 9y ago
  I can't even count the times I've heard of... Probably because that count would be exactly... zero. I have over 60 years of criminology data and yet cannot find one case that meets your stated criteria (bar fight or any other collection of strangers resulting in more than 2 fatalities or 3 wounded).
  - UncleEntity 9y ago
    1 dead 2 wounded: https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/arizona/articles/2017-05-29/man-dead-2-others-hurt-in-phoenix-bar-shooting https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/arizona/articles/201... 1 dead 2 wounded: http://www.azfamily.com/story/37585825/police-investigating-shooting-near-south-phoenix-substation http://www.azfamily.com/story/37585825/police-investigating-... 1 dead 2 wounded: https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2016/10/29/man-killed-2-others-injured-phoenix-bar-shooting/92954984/ https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2016/10/2... and that's just Phoenix. Hold on...found a 6 people shot one too: https://www.click2houston.com/news/6-people-shot-after-fight-in-boss-nightclub-sports-bar-parking-lot-1 https://www.click2houston.com/news/6-people-shot-after-fight... Don't think your criminology database is all that comprehensive... --edit-- Actually, just up the street from the first link I was in the parking lot of Kitty's Bar calling into dispatch (was working for Sunrise Cab at the time) and this "individual" took 3 or 4 steps into the street and unloaded his handgun in the air. Me (being me) looked at this "individual", who's 30-40 feet away from me, and see he's not shooting at me so go back to what I was doing and was like "whatever". Only thing I can think of is he was either mad at getting kicked out of the bar or perhaps wanted the traffic to stop for his jaywalking, dunno? Of course all my later calls were in the area the police were conducting their manhunt which was a PITA.
ezoe 9y ago
Seriously? As a Japanese, I can't agree any of the auther's claim. First, It's less than 20 years old for a crime to be punished differently than adults in Japan. Not 21 years. An article containing this level of mistake cannot trusted further. It said, Japanese biker gang can get a gun but not doing so because of honor, “Being able to move your finger on a trigger is not really a skill that wows anyone.” What? It costs a fortune(and you have to deal with bad guys) to illegally acquire the shitty hand gun that was so poorly manufactured and cannot be trusted. And each live rounds cost a fortune too. How can a young dropouts and delinquents earn such amount of money while still maintaining the bikes?
- philliphaydon 9y ago
  Huh, Japan is trial as adult from 21 on-wards... Juvenile is up to 20 years old...
  - glandium 9y ago
    No, it's >= 20.　But it's actually more complicated than < 20/>= 20. https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%B0%91%E5%B9%B4%E6%B3%95 https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%B0%91%E5%B9%B4%E6%B3%95 Children can be charged at any age, but there is no criminal liability under 14. Children under 14 can still be sent to juvenile detention centers. From 14 on-wards, they can be sentenced to prison, with reduced sentences compared to adults. From 18 on-wards, they can be sentenced like adults.

101 points by curtis 9y ago

“Their reasons for remaining gun-free revolved around some loosely held concept of honor,” Beck says. “Being able to move your finger on a trigger is not really a skill that wows anyone.” I find this mindset is reflected in a lot of manga produced in Japan. Heroes are often paired with swords: Rurouni Kenshin, Inu Yasha, and Bleach to name a few.

krapp 9y ago
And yet (as I hear) the Samurai they emulate considered their bows to be their primary weapon, and their spears their secondary weapon, and considered it a disgrace to ever need to draw their sword. They also used guns when they became available. They were soldiers and mercenaries, after all.
- tantalor 9y ago
  Those old guns were probably a lot harder to use than a modern handgun or rifle
  - jcranmer 9y ago
    The guns of the Gunpowder Age are generally some variant of the arquebus, matchlock, flintlock, or musket (the terms are generally interchangeable). The key early innovations in that era were the development of the triggered mechanism (originally a smoldering piece of rope, aka a match, later a piece of flint that sparks when struck), the stock for stability, and the long barrel for sighting. The developments that led since then to the modern gun are breech loading, the Minié ball, magazine-fed ammunition, paper and later metal cartridges, rifling, smokeless powder, and the automatic firing mechanism. With the exception of the paper cartridge, all of these technologies were developed in the latter half of the 19th century. Simply put, pre-American Civil War guns were tactically very different in operation from 20th and 21st century guns. As an aside, this is why WWI was so bloody: generals were trying to fight a war with 20th century guns and 18th century tactics.
- PhasmaFelis 9y ago
  Of course manga heroes are more about romantic ideals than historical accuracy, but even so, you can't really generalize about all samurai any more than you can generalize about all European knights. The samurai class existed in one form or another for around a millennium. I rather doubt that they all considered it a "disgrace" to draw their sword.
  - PakG1 9y ago
    If it was a disgrace to draw the sword, I imagine that swordsmanship and sword styles would not be so highly regarded, and there wouldn't have been entire dojos devoted to specific styles. If that were really the case, I imagine there would have been more dojos devoted to archery and spear styles, and those would have been held in higher regard than sword styles. Perhaps that actually was the case, but "popular" historical accounts seem to say otherwise?
  - krapp 9y ago
    >The samurai class existed in one form or another for around a millennium. I rather doubt that they all considered it a "disgrace" to draw their sword. That's fair. I was just trying to imply that the samurai (and Western cowboy, and European knight, and even modern yakuza and mafia) all present a romantic facade in popular culture that wasn't and isn't necessarily reflected in practical reality. Apparently even the concept of Bushido is a cultural retcon[0,1] as is, almost everything related to ninja[2,3]. Some young Japanese hoodlums might buy into the hype, but I don't necessarily trust that anecdata as a basis to make some general statement about Japanese culture mistrusting guns because they're less honorable. [0]https://www.tofugu.com/japan/bushido/ https://www.tofugu.com/japan/bushido/ [1]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11990721 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11990721 [2]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-UePD6Wp5A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-UePD6Wp5A [3]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR43l77jlpY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR43l77jlpY
- solidsnack9000 9y ago
  What these gangs are doing is closer to single combat than to war, as it is about proving oneself. In most societies, the manners around single combat place much greater emphasis on what is honorable than what is effective, and in that regard Japan is not exceptional.
- scythe 9y ago
  Projectiles are obviously more effective in a large battle, as demonstrated notably by Khan, G et al 1209, 1215, 1221, etc.
- novembermike 9y ago
  Depends on the era. By the time they were adopting guns most of the Samurai had given up bows. Most Samurai were spearmen, with Ashigaru typically being the bowmen.
brownbat 9y ago
It's not wholly unique to Japan. In retellings of the Trojan War, Ajax's bow is used to make him look less honorable than the swordsmen he kills. It's basically technophobia. Usually a dangerous bias, but if we can harness it to prevent people from shooting each other, maybe that's the upside.
- ethbro 9y ago
  I'd say the dishonorable bow is less technophobia and more class-phobia. The idea that a peasant could murder an armored nobleman with a lucky shot? Inconceivable!
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- jcranmer 9y ago
  Bows were invented millennia before swords were. The earliest bows we have dated go back 10kya, and we suspect they date even earlier. Advancements like recurve and composite bows date to at least 4kya. By contrast, the earliest swords date back to around 3-4kya, late Bronze Age, and the important advances (most notably, capable steel production) that make swords effective weapons really date to only around late Antiquity and Early Medieval.
- ColanR 9y ago
  That's quite a leap - dishonor of an easy shot equated with fear of new weapons? I think a source is needed.
dangero 9y ago
You actually see this in mixed martial arts as well where Japanese fighters often refuse to cut weight and instead fight at their natural weight. For those who are unaware in MMA everything is done by weight classes. If you fight at 155, you need to stand on a scale and weigh 155 or less the day before the fight. Most fighters tend to start at a much higher wight and cut all the water out of their system in the days before. Once they officially weigh in, they rehydrate which makes them much heavier by fight day. A lot of fighters cut more than 20 pounds leading up to a fight, so you can imagine what a disadvantage a fighter is at who fights at their natural weight.

JepZ 9y ago

So in Japan you are the cool kid when you come with a knife to a gun fight ;-) I like that attitude.

m3kw9 9y ago
In Japan, the person with the gun would be known as bringing a gun to a knife fight.
- notyourwork 9y ago
  He/she would also probably be known as undefeated.
  - DoreenMichele 9y ago
    There are no places to practice. From what I gather, even Japanese Yakuza cannot hit the broad side of a barn.
    - Cyph0n 9y ago
      Japan is small, but I'm sure there are still plenty of uninhabited natural areas. Just setup a few cans and fire away.
      - DoreenMichele 9y ago
        If they wanted to make it realistic, he'd pull out a gun and shoot it and miss! Or the damn thing wouldn't fire. That would be realistic. (They all laugh). https://boingboing.net/2010/08/10/yakuza-3-review.html https://boingboing.net/2010/08/10/yakuza-3-review.html
    - halbritt 9y ago
      Japan produced an IPSC champion some years back. In Japan, he trained exclusively with an airsoft pistol and only ever fired a gun when he came to the US to compete.

dahdum 9y ago

This conclusion is based on remembered anecdote from 35 years ago...bit shaky to make firm statements based on that. Edit: Unless I'm missing something basic here? I don't see any reference or link to the "study on juvenile crime" the article title references.

seabird 9y ago
It is indeed anecdotal, but gang violence is hugely influenced by the culture of the nation it's taking place in. Brash, unabashed outlaws have been romanticized in American culture since its very beginning, and firearms have always been a part of the American gunslinger mythos. Other nations facing organized crime with access to firearms don't necessarily have the same issues.

aaronbrethorst 9y ago

The retired cop then noted that even the yakuza don’t like to use guns these days — because the penalties are too high...One mid-level yakuza boss told me, “Having a gun now is like having a time bomb. Do you think any sane person wants to keep one around the house?” https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2013/01/06/national/media-national/even-gangsters-live-in-fear-of-japans-gun-laws/ https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2013/01/06/national/media-...

s_m_t 9y ago
In certain cities in the United States going to jail for shooting and killing someone is something of a networking retreat for criminals. You plead down to manslaughter and may serve less than 3 years. Great way to jumpstart your career and gain credibility on the streets.
- jMyles 9y ago
  I need to see some evidence of these claims. I doubt that prison is materially similar to a "networking retreat". Are people really pleading down to manslaughter, after literally shooting and killing someone, and serving less than 3 years?
  - ggg9990 9y ago
    The large numbers of prison gangs is evidence of the networking function. And in gang ridden neighborhoods most murders aren’t even solved, and 3 years happens regularly, because of the low evidence an lack of witness cooperation causing prosecutors to cut plea bargains.
    - forapurpose 9y ago
      I agree with the GP; I'd need to see some evidence. > in gang ridden neighborhoods Gangs are no longer a problem in most American cities, afaik. It's a obsolete myth in the minds of people who never step foot in poor and working-class urban neighborhoods, but they see lots of TV and movies.

ggm 9y ago

Back in the early 2000s I visited Kitakyushu. From my hotel window around midnight, to 1am I witnessed some local hoodlums rev their car engine loudly, and then "run away" being chased by police in a car. The chase went around the square once and then peeled off to .. a red traffic light. Both hoodlums and police stopped at the red light, and sat there until the light turned green before resuming their "chase" at approximately 20km/h. I think they got away. Very slowly. TL;DR yes youth culture is quite different around the world

patientplatypus 9y ago
This is one of the most Japanese stories I have ever read.

letientai299 9y ago

This article remind me of the series movies "Crows Zero"about high school students fight each other to become the leader, and also fight other school's students. They only use bare hand. Weapon do appears, but very unlikely. There's also a scene that an the "oyabun" (absolute leader of a yakuza clan) use gun to kill one man who did not complete a mission, but instead of shooting into his head, the oyabun gave the man his coat, and shoot to the back. It turns out that the coat is bullet proof, and the oyabun actually allow that man to live a normal life thereafter. Watching that movie make me absolutely want to fight someone with my bare hand (I know I shouldn't).

miketery 9y ago
I highly recommend trying out BJJ (Brazilian Jiu Jitsu). Not only is it physically and mentally stimulating (I like to refer to it as physical chess), it also makes you appreciate how vulnerable you are, and by extension why to avoid physical altercation at nearly all costs. An added bonus is that you'll be able to defend your self against most people.
minikomi 9y ago
This movie is almost certainly a throwback to the 70s~80s "tsuppari"[0] style movies like Bebop High School[1] [0] https://www.google.co.jp/search?q=%E3%83%84%E3%83%83%E3%83%91%E3%83%AA&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiO_duz3uXZAhWCv7wKHRMDC8YQ_AUICigB&biw=1280&bih=1343 https://www.google.co.jp/search?q=%E3%83%84%E3%83%83%E3%83%9... [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFTVfAHHfIs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFTVfAHHfIs
mirimir 9y ago
I love Takashi Miike! The fighting in "Crows Zero" is extremely cartoonish. So is the fighting in "Izo", but it's rather dark.

a_bonobo 9y ago

I should quote from an older book called 'Confessions of a Yakuza', on the Yakuza from about 80 years ago, it's just so fitting: >The real reason why the police set him up, of course, was to improve the district’s anti-crime record. Sometime after I left jail—around 1938, I suppose it would have been—I had just the same kind of trouble myself at my joint in Uguisudani. Told me, in just the same way, to hand in my guns. This particular detective came straight from the Metropolitan Police Board—the very top. I expect they’d been tipped off that some yakuza somewhere had got hold of a few pistols, so they planned to make a clean sweep. But there weren’t any in my place to begin with, and there was nothing I could do. >So they told me to produce some even if I had to buy them. It was way out of line, but if I’d gone on insisting I didn’t have any, I’d have ended up the same as Kan-chan, so I got a brother to buy me a couple at three hundred and fifty yen apiece. That was enough to buy a house with in those days, but I couldn’t afford to think about that. >I turned them in to the police immediately. “Good work,” they said—and that was the last I heard about it: no letter of thanks, and no punishment, either....

warent 9y ago
I'm glad there was no punishment, but wow, that's such a crazy and unfair situation to find yourself in.

Lazare 9y ago

Interesting fact: Firearms were present in Japan beginning in the 13th century, but saw little adoption. In 1543, the Portuguese introduced matchlock firearms, a much more impressive weapon, and Japan embraced them. They began manufacturing them in great numbers, researching firearms technology, and fielding armies equipped with firearms, which they used to great effect. In 1592 a Japanese force invaded Korea and rapidly captured Seoul, in large part due to the presence of an estimated 40k gunners in the force. It's estimated Japan may have led the world during this period in firearm production, and surviving written records suggest they saw firearms very positively. ...then, they stopped. There's an excellent book about it called "Giving Up The Gun" (https://www.amazon.com/Giving-Up-Gun-Reversion-1543-1879/dp/0879237732 https://www.amazon.com/Giving-Up-Gun-Reversion-1543-1879/dp/...) There's no super clear explanation; the answer mostly seems to be a vague hand-wavy nod towards "cultural reasons". But, obviously, those cultural reasons didn't seem to apply prior to the Edo period, when Japan went all-in on firearms, arguably more so than any European country. Odd.

yongjik 9y ago
I'm not a historian, but I think "the period of war" is a nice explanation: > The Sengoku period (戦国時代 Sengoku Jidai, "Age of Warring States"; c. 1467 – c. 1603) is a period in Japanese history marked by social upheaval, political intrigue and near-constant military conflict. Japanese historians named it after the otherwise unrelated Warring States period in China. It was initiated by the Ōnin War, which collapsed the Japanese feudal system under the Ashikaga shogunate, and came to an end when the system was re-established under the Tokugawa shogunate by Tokugawa Ieyasu. So, after the period of war ended and the Tokugawa Shogunate was established, the "Bakufu" clearly did not want millions of unemployed soldiers hanging around with guns. (I heard even the invasion on Korea was conceived as a means of keeping soldiers and lesser feudal lords busy, though I'm not sure how widely it is believed.)
- Lazare 9y ago
  It's a plausible argument I suppose. And Europe never went through a comparable period of peace and unification (at any rate prior to the present day), so it sort of makes sense that Europe stuck with its guns and Japan did not. And yet it still raises questions. It happened very suddenly as these things go (over a few years or decades, rather than centuries), and seems to have been accompanied by a deep, long-lasting cultural shift. Even after Japanese isolation ended in the mid 19th century, there didn't seem to be any real reversion (hence, indirectly, the originally linked article). If the establishment of the Tokugawa Shogunate was enough to make Japan give up the gun, why was it's collapse not enough to make Japan re-embrace it? If the answer is "unique Japanese culture", why was it not present at the start of the Sengoku period? It's not like the Sengoku period was just way more violent than the 1850-1950 period. Anyhow, the book I linked (which I last read over 10 years ago, so I'm a bit fuzzy on some of the details) goes into a lot more detail, digging through historical records and evaluating most of the obvious theories. I highly recommend it!

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sametmax 9y ago

Well, there is another thing as well: is it legal and easy to get a gun in Japan as a person ? Because I get that a gang use guns in the US, where it's quite easy to get your hands on one. But in France, while some criminals do have guns, it's not that common. It's not only hard to get a gun but it would also almost always considered like a sure tell something fishy is going on. Having a gun, unless you can conceal it very well and not be noticed when you use it, is a great way to get busted.

SlowRobotAhead 9y ago
You know guns are legal outside of Paris and you can buy silencers over the counter right? The most serious restriction on guns in France is you can only own two at any time that accept military calibers. So 9x19mm, bad, but 9x21mm A-OK.
- sametmax 9y ago
  You need to practice at a shooting range with professional to even get access to a simple gun. A process that is hardly as casual as this: http://money.cnn.com/2015/06/19/news/guns-background-checks/index.html http://money.cnn.com/2015/06/19/news/guns-background-checks/... And come on, if you get an FFL licence, you can even get a silencer or a machine gun as a normal citizen. The difficulty is not even on the same scale.
  - DrScump 9y ago
    And come on, if you get an FFL licence It became very difficult to get an FFL without having an actual storefront, or being a gunsmith, starting with the Clinton administration. you can even get a silencer or a machine gun as a normal citizen That's flat false. Being a conventional FFL doesn't bestow any access to any NFA weapons.

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UncleEntity 9y ago

I can't even count the times I've heard of someone getting into a bar fight and not being content to get their ass kicked "like a man" proceed to get a gun out of their car and shoot like six innocent people trying to get back at the person who did the ass kicking. It's a cultural thing methinks...

masonic 9y ago
I can't even count the times I've heard of... Probably because that count would be exactly... zero. I have over 60 years of criminology data and yet cannot find one case that meets your stated criteria (bar fight or any other collection of strangers resulting in more than 2 fatalities or 3 wounded).
- UncleEntity 9y ago
  1 dead 2 wounded: https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/arizona/articles/2017-05-29/man-dead-2-others-hurt-in-phoenix-bar-shooting https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/arizona/articles/201... 1 dead 2 wounded: http://www.azfamily.com/story/37585825/police-investigating-shooting-near-south-phoenix-substation http://www.azfamily.com/story/37585825/police-investigating-... 1 dead 2 wounded: https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2016/10/29/man-killed-2-others-injured-phoenix-bar-shooting/92954984/ https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2016/10/2... and that's just Phoenix. Hold on...found a 6 people shot one too: https://www.click2houston.com/news/6-people-shot-after-fight-in-boss-nightclub-sports-bar-parking-lot-1 https://www.click2houston.com/news/6-people-shot-after-fight... Don't think your criminology database is all that comprehensive... --edit-- Actually, just up the street from the first link I was in the parking lot of Kitty's Bar calling into dispatch (was working for Sunrise Cab at the time) and this "individual" took 3 or 4 steps into the street and unloaded his handgun in the air. Me (being me) looked at this "individual", who's 30-40 feet away from me, and see he's not shooting at me so go back to what I was doing and was like "whatever". Only thing I can think of is he was either mad at getting kicked out of the bar or perhaps wanted the traffic to stop for his jaywalking, dunno? Of course all my later calls were in the area the police were conducting their manhunt which was a PITA.

ezoe 9y ago

Seriously? As a Japanese, I can't agree any of the auther's claim. First, It's less than 20 years old for a crime to be punished differently than adults in Japan. Not 21 years. An article containing this level of mistake cannot trusted further. It said, Japanese biker gang can get a gun but not doing so because of honor, “Being able to move your finger on a trigger is not really a skill that wows anyone.” What? It costs a fortune(and you have to deal with bad guys) to illegally acquire the shitty hand gun that was so poorly manufactured and cannot be trusted. And each live rounds cost a fortune too. How can a young dropouts and delinquents earn such amount of money while still maintaining the bikes?

philliphaydon 9y ago
Huh, Japan is trial as adult from 21 on-wards... Juvenile is up to 20 years old...
- glandium 9y ago
  No, it's >= 20.　But it's actually more complicated than < 20/>= 20. https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%B0%91%E5%B9%B4%E6%B3%95 https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%B0%91%E5%B9%B4%E6%B3%95 Children can be charged at any age, but there is no criminal liability under 14. Children under 14 can still be sent to juvenile detention centers. From 14 on-wards, they can be sentenced to prison, with reduced sentences compared to adults. From 18 on-wards, they can be sentenced like adults.