4 ms·

Sounds similar in operation to a Shabbat Elevator (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbat_elevator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbat_elevator) which visit ev

Sounds similar in operation to a Shabbat Elevator (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbat_elevator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbat_elevator) which visit every floor automatically, but still have traditional doors and don't run on a looped circuit. The debate over whether such devices violate religious rules is pretty interesting. I have to imagine if there's an omnipotent deity looking upon on his followers from on high, he'd be thinking something like: Very clever, humans, but you know exactly why I made the rule, and it wasn't so you could win on a slight technicality by not pushing any buttons.

the-dude 9y ago
I was under the impression Jewish people are actually enjoying bending the rules through such clever hacks. There are also Shabbat ovens. Turn on/off automatically, so you are not operating the machine!
- mrchicity 9y ago
  Talmud scholarship in general is an important part of some Jewish people's culture. They have a rich history of debating rules/their interpretations and applying them to hypothetical or actual life situations. It's a great way to practice critical thinking skills. A Shabbat oven could square with the spirit of the law if you do all your prep the day before and put it in a timed oven to enjoy later. Pretty similar in principle to people in an agrarian society harvesting before their day of rest so they can enjoy a meal together without laboring. Islamic finance is a similar work-around, since charging interest (riba/usury) is against some interpretations of Sharia law. Banks structure special products that don't make guaranteed interest payments: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_banking_and_finance#Sukuk_(Islamic_bonds) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_banking_and_finance#Su... I actually quite like the idea of setting aside some time for family and community without work, modern machinery or electronics.
  - askvictor 9y ago
    This all makes sense, but having to create a special oven to work around your strict interpretation of this rule just seems silly. Just work within the spirit of the rule, and turn the oven on for when you want to cook your pre prepared meal.
- WJW 9y ago
  Not to mention Shabbat lamps, which have an opaque shade you can put over them so you won't notice the light while it technically stays on. I also think any reasonable deity would be pretty miffed at this avoidance of the rules, but then again I suppose the Jews would know their god better than me. (In a somewhat more reasonable/funny bending of the rules; Jews are apparently also forbidden to "tear cloth" on the Shabbat, since that counted as work back in the day for tailors etc. However, after some discussions in the rabbinate there is now "Shabbat toilet paper", which does not come on a roll but as loose leaves of paper so you don't have to do any tearing on the day itself.)
  - the-dude 9y ago
    Wonderful toiler paper! Although 'sheeted' toilet paper has existed for ages ( I remember the UK around 1980 ).
  - mikeash 9y ago
    My understanding (as a secular Jew, so I could be wrong) is that the attitude is that if God hadn't meant for there to be loopholes like this, He wouldn't have written the rules this way in the first place. In a way, trying to obey the spirit rather than the letter of the law is implying imperfection on the part of the author of the laws.
    - WJW 9y ago
      That actually makes a lot of sense, (provided you believe He exists and is infallible in the first place) After more reading, there is apparently a sect that (while otherwise quite orthodox) considers electricity from photovoltaic power not to violate the commandment of "not making fire" and so provided they have PV panels or batteries they can use electricity freely on Shabbat. Still not for working of course, but a light would be OK.
- jaclaz 9y ago
  There are also Shabbath light switches, JFYI: http://www.kosherswitch.com/live/tech/how http://www.kosherswitch.com/live/tech/how the name says it all, but the actual way they devised to workaround the issue is IMHO extremely clever: "Our technology revolves around several layers of Halachic uncertainty, randomness, and delays, such that Halachically, a user’s action is not considered to have caused a given reaction."
wbl 9y ago
An omnipotent god could easily have said what he meant.
tree_of_item 9y ago
> Very clever, humans, but you know exactly why I made the rule Do they? I can't imagine why an omnipotent deity would give a shit about whether or not people use electricity. What is the reason given?
- mrchicity 9y ago
  Various reasons, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_on_Shabbat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_on_Shabbat and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Activities_prohibited_on_Shabbat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Activities_prohibited_on_Shabb... It's important to note that not every member of a religious group interprets rules or follows them in the same manner. There are strict Orthodox Jewish sects that hew closely to these laws, and I've known many people from a Reform Jewish background who don't even keep Kosher. You see the same thing in Christianity with branches having varying degrees of liberal/strict rules. Individuals within those groups are even more varied still--for example many Catholics visit the Church only for Christmas/Easter and use birth control.
- mhb 9y ago
  Why wouldn't an omnipotent deity care?
askvictor 9y ago
At least one rabbi ruled that taking an elevator _down_ is operating a machine (since your body mass is contributing to the downward motion), and hence forbidden on the Sabbath.

the-dude 9y ago

I was under the impression Jewish people are actually enjoying bending the rules through such clever hacks. There are also Shabbat ovens. Turn on/off automatically, so you are not operating the machine!

mrchicity 9y ago
Talmud scholarship in general is an important part of some Jewish people's culture. They have a rich history of debating rules/their interpretations and applying them to hypothetical or actual life situations. It's a great way to practice critical thinking skills. A Shabbat oven could square with the spirit of the law if you do all your prep the day before and put it in a timed oven to enjoy later. Pretty similar in principle to people in an agrarian society harvesting before their day of rest so they can enjoy a meal together without laboring. Islamic finance is a similar work-around, since charging interest (riba/usury) is against some interpretations of Sharia law. Banks structure special products that don't make guaranteed interest payments: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_banking_and_finance#Sukuk_(Islamic_bonds) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_banking_and_finance#Su... I actually quite like the idea of setting aside some time for family and community without work, modern machinery or electronics.
- askvictor 9y ago
  This all makes sense, but having to create a special oven to work around your strict interpretation of this rule just seems silly. Just work within the spirit of the rule, and turn the oven on for when you want to cook your pre prepared meal.
WJW 9y ago
Not to mention Shabbat lamps, which have an opaque shade you can put over them so you won't notice the light while it technically stays on. I also think any reasonable deity would be pretty miffed at this avoidance of the rules, but then again I suppose the Jews would know their god better than me. (In a somewhat more reasonable/funny bending of the rules; Jews are apparently also forbidden to "tear cloth" on the Shabbat, since that counted as work back in the day for tailors etc. However, after some discussions in the rabbinate there is now "Shabbat toilet paper", which does not come on a roll but as loose leaves of paper so you don't have to do any tearing on the day itself.)
- the-dude 9y ago
  Wonderful toiler paper! Although 'sheeted' toilet paper has existed for ages ( I remember the UK around 1980 ).
- mikeash 9y ago
  My understanding (as a secular Jew, so I could be wrong) is that the attitude is that if God hadn't meant for there to be loopholes like this, He wouldn't have written the rules this way in the first place. In a way, trying to obey the spirit rather than the letter of the law is implying imperfection on the part of the author of the laws.
  - WJW 9y ago
    That actually makes a lot of sense, (provided you believe He exists and is infallible in the first place) After more reading, there is apparently a sect that (while otherwise quite orthodox) considers electricity from photovoltaic power not to violate the commandment of "not making fire" and so provided they have PV panels or batteries they can use electricity freely on Shabbat. Still not for working of course, but a light would be OK.
jaclaz 9y ago
There are also Shabbath light switches, JFYI: http://www.kosherswitch.com/live/tech/how http://www.kosherswitch.com/live/tech/how the name says it all, but the actual way they devised to workaround the issue is IMHO extremely clever: "Our technology revolves around several layers of Halachic uncertainty, randomness, and delays, such that Halachically, a user’s action is not considered to have caused a given reaction."

wbl 9y ago

An omnipotent god could easily have said what he meant.

tree_of_item 9y ago

> Very clever, humans, but you know exactly why I made the rule Do they? I can't imagine why an omnipotent deity would give a shit about whether or not people use electricity. What is the reason given?

mrchicity 9y ago
Various reasons, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_on_Shabbat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_on_Shabbat and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Activities_prohibited_on_Shabbat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Activities_prohibited_on_Shabb... It's important to note that not every member of a religious group interprets rules or follows them in the same manner. There are strict Orthodox Jewish sects that hew closely to these laws, and I've known many people from a Reform Jewish background who don't even keep Kosher. You see the same thing in Christianity with branches having varying degrees of liberal/strict rules. Individuals within those groups are even more varied still--for example many Catholics visit the Church only for Christmas/Easter and use birth control.
mhb 9y ago
Why wouldn't an omnipotent deity care?

askvictor 9y ago

At least one rabbi ruled that taking an elevator _down_ is operating a machine (since your body mass is contributing to the downward motion), and hence forbidden on the Sabbath.