4 ms·

Depends on the specific developer and a bunch of other factors. Having been through the startup song and dance more than once, I can give you a single data poi

Depends on the specific developer and a bunch of other factors. Having been through the startup song and dance more than once, I can give you a single data point: what motivates me. 1) I prefer to work with small rather than large companies because of the opportunity for autonomy and to understand and be involved in the business as a whole rather than just one tiny corner. But upon interviewing I have to be convinced I'll get those things. 2) How low is the salary? I don't expect Google salaries from a tiny startup, but I won't take less than what I see as market rate for small companies, either. The opportunity cost is too high, and I've got enough experience to know that the expected value of all those stock options is exactly $0. 3) I pick jobs in part based on what I want to learn next. Sometimes those are technologies (a language or framework); sometimes they're developer skills (get better at code review or devops); sometimes they're soft skills. You need to be willing to hire people who don't already have experience in all the things you expect them to do. And you need to either be able to give them mentorship or the space to fail until they learn those things. 4) What's the commute like? A five minute difference in commute won't be the deciding factor when choosing between jobs, but I'll never take a job that requires more than an hour each way; and a 10-minute walk to work is incredibly appealing. Even better, allow me to work remote at least 3 days a week, with zero commute and more control over my environment (see next point). And if you're open to fully remote work, you can find excellent senior developers in Nebraska, Argentina, or Poland, whose expectations around work culture are similar but whose idea of an excellent salary is half that of the Bay Area/NYC/Seattle/etc. 5) What's the office like? I've resigned myself to the fact that almost no small companies have anything other than an open office these days. Poke around HN's archives a bit to find out what the majority of engineers think of open offices and why. If you can offer private offices, small team offices, or even cubicles, highlight that in your posting to get developers beating a path to your door. 6) What are the hours like, and are they flexible? After doing this for 15 years I can say with confidence that while I can do a couple weeks in a row of more than 40 hours during crunch time, it'll take either a week off or 6 weeks of working 40-hour weeks at 50% productivity before I'm back up to full productivity. Too many startups try to push their developers at a 60-plus hour/week pace and quickly burn them out. I won't even consider that job any more. I value my health (mental and physical) much more than any job. There are probably a few other things but they're not coming up off the top of my head. You'll notice that none of the above points are especially "sexy" - they're mostly about offering day to day quality of life that's better than I can expect elsewhere. Junior developers who are new to the industry may be dazzled by the idea of a dream team and exciting new problems and omg equity! But most of us who have been around the block a few times just want a sane working environment and reasonable compensation at a place where we won't completely stagnate.

LisaDziuba 9y ago
Thanks for your comprehensive comment! Very thoughtful and it gave me many new ideas to showcase our "strong sides" (what we can actually offer). Some notes: 1) > But upon interviewing I have to be convinced I'll get those things. I'm feeling more and more that we as a startup have to convince the engineer that we are worth joining us. 2) > How low is the salary? I won't take less than what I see as market rate for small companies Totally understandable. Do you think it's possible to propose reduced rate for some period of time (until investments come to the bank account)? 3) > I pick jobs in part based on what I want to learn next. Mentorship is what we heavily do for our current small team. This comment helped me to understand what I need to highlight in my job offer :) As we have a tool inside iOS simulator, there are many new things we can propose to learn. Can be a good point for candidates. 4) > What's the commute like? Together with the comment from @lovelearning, you made me think about the commute... Seriously, I have no idea that it can be an issue. We have a room in the friends' office near the subway station. It's like 5 min walk from the subway and it's near the city center. We're from Kyiv and public transport is pretty good here, so it can be one more good point to mention. > Even better, allow me to work remote at least 3 days a week, with zero commute and more control over my environment Generally, we would prefer someone in the office but that's something discussable. If a person can deliver and we build remote process, then fine. Good point to mention too. 5) > What's the office like? small room with 6 tables, nice flowers, my paintings on the wall and mutual kitchen. As we rent that room from friends, they are working in that space as well. Our room is always closed by the door, so it's quite there. 6) > What are the hours like, and are they flexible? Flexible hours and we try to care about mental health. By this, I mean we don't push the team with extra work hours or workload, unless it's critically needed. As founders, it's our job to work 24/7 and fix all the fires, as well as do all shitty tasks. 7). > But most of us who have been around the block a few times just want a sane working environment and reasonable compensation at a place where we won't completely stagnate. as anyone else :) Thank you again!
- cimmanom 9y ago
  You're welcome. I wish more startup founders would ask what developers actually want instead of making (often idiotic) assumptions. To answer your followup questions: > 1) I'm feeling more and more that we as a startup have to convince the engineer that we are worth joining us. Yes. This. Even mediocre software developers have tons of opportunities open to them these days. You need to convince them why they should work for you instead of the other guys. Frankly, that should be the case with any employee, but it's even more so in a market where talent is scarce and opportunities abound. > 2) Do you think it's possible to propose reduced rate for some period of time (until investments come to the bank account)? That depends. A) Is that investment deal already closed and signed, and just waiting for the funds to land? B) Why should I believe you'll ever have that money? C) Will I be getting back pay to my full rate once the money does land? D) What's the incentive to me to take that risk at all, when I could just get a job with a company that will pay me in full now? Am I going to be paid interest on what's essentially money I'm lending to the company during that period? [In short, the answer is "probably not", but maybe if you can find someone unusually trusting or desperate, in which case you may want to ask yourselves why they're so desperate.] Good luck!

LisaDziuba 9y ago

Thanks for your comprehensive comment! Very thoughtful and it gave me many new ideas to showcase our "strong sides" (what we can actually offer). Some notes: 1) > But upon interviewing I have to be convinced I'll get those things. I'm feeling more and more that we as a startup have to convince the engineer that we are worth joining us. 2) > How low is the salary? I won't take less than what I see as market rate for small companies Totally understandable. Do you think it's possible to propose reduced rate for some period of time (until investments come to the bank account)? 3) > I pick jobs in part based on what I want to learn next. Mentorship is what we heavily do for our current small team. This comment helped me to understand what I need to highlight in my job offer :) As we have a tool inside iOS simulator, there are many new things we can propose to learn. Can be a good point for candidates. 4) > What's the commute like? Together with the comment from @lovelearning, you made me think about the commute... Seriously, I have no idea that it can be an issue. We have a room in the friends' office near the subway station. It's like 5 min walk from the subway and it's near the city center. We're from Kyiv and public transport is pretty good here, so it can be one more good point to mention. > Even better, allow me to work remote at least 3 days a week, with zero commute and more control over my environment Generally, we would prefer someone in the office but that's something discussable. If a person can deliver and we build remote process, then fine. Good point to mention too. 5) > What's the office like? small room with 6 tables, nice flowers, my paintings on the wall and mutual kitchen. As we rent that room from friends, they are working in that space as well. Our room is always closed by the door, so it's quite there. 6) > What are the hours like, and are they flexible? Flexible hours and we try to care about mental health. By this, I mean we don't push the team with extra work hours or workload, unless it's critically needed. As founders, it's our job to work 24/7 and fix all the fires, as well as do all shitty tasks. 7). > But most of us who have been around the block a few times just want a sane working environment and reasonable compensation at a place where we won't completely stagnate. as anyone else :) Thank you again!

cimmanom 9y ago
You're welcome. I wish more startup founders would ask what developers actually want instead of making (often idiotic) assumptions. To answer your followup questions: > 1) I'm feeling more and more that we as a startup have to convince the engineer that we are worth joining us. Yes. This. Even mediocre software developers have tons of opportunities open to them these days. You need to convince them why they should work for you instead of the other guys. Frankly, that should be the case with any employee, but it's even more so in a market where talent is scarce and opportunities abound. > 2) Do you think it's possible to propose reduced rate for some period of time (until investments come to the bank account)? That depends. A) Is that investment deal already closed and signed, and just waiting for the funds to land? B) Why should I believe you'll ever have that money? C) Will I be getting back pay to my full rate once the money does land? D) What's the incentive to me to take that risk at all, when I could just get a job with a company that will pay me in full now? Am I going to be paid interest on what's essentially money I'm lending to the company during that period? [In short, the answer is "probably not", but maybe if you can find someone unusually trusting or desperate, in which case you may want to ask yourselves why they're so desperate.] Good luck!