5 ms·

I'd be very careful about applying lessons from a game to the real world. Lots of games designed by economists, for example, tend to validate the pet theories o

I'd be very careful about applying lessons from a game to the real world. Lots of games designed by economists, for example, tend to validate the pet theories of the economists, despite not working in the real world. Real world economics is infinitely more complex than the handful of rules in a game.

Retric 9y ago
I think the biggest difference is most games tend to have anything not dead + positive resource stream = a win. People tend to build city's / county's / etc that go through a major such phase to maximize resource collection. In reality you generally don't want to have 40 years of suck to get to some long term gain, because you need to live those 40 years.
- lione 9y ago
  You mean some sort of great leap forward produces negative results for your citizens until it's completed? I swear I heard a story similar to that in reality.
  - Retric 9y ago
    The thing is relative to most developing nations China has had very slow economic growth. Yes, with a massive population, but China ranks 110 by purchasing power per person. It's economy is terrible, the only thing it has going for it is scale. And it's not like it has a massive population density either ranking at #80 world wide.
    - hobbes78 9y ago
      http://www.theamericanconservative.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/ChinaGDP_2e.jpg http://www.theamericanconservative.com/wp-content/uploads/20...
      - Retric 9y ago
        developing nations USA in 1980 was already a developed nation with a high relative standard of living. It could only grow GDP by inventing new technology and process not simply import proven tech. China's continued failures are massive and ongoing. Some numbers look ok relative to their past failures but that's about it.
gdubs 9y ago
I don’t have a source — lazy Saturday here — but I recall something about city planners using Sim City back in the day as part of their education, which horrified Will Wright since in his words (paraphrasing) “sim city is just cellular automata with some differential equations sprinkled on top.”
- RandomInteger4 9y ago
  Dear god ... that game makes so much more sense now when seen in that light. I can't believe I haven't made the connection before considering much I enjoy cellular automata.
- ebcode 9y ago
  Yeah, but who's to say that real cities aren't just cellular automata? They kind of look that way from space.
  - gowld 9y ago
    Even if they are, they don't have the same rules as SimCity's
    - CalRobert 9y ago
      Indeed, though in some cases it reveals that the problem is likely how we design actual cities. http://humantransit.org/2013/05/how-sim-city-greenwashes-parking.html http://humantransit.org/2013/05/how-sim-city-greenwashes-par...
skookumchuck 9y ago
For example, the classic board game "Monopoly" was invented to push an economic agenda: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-scandalous-history-of-monopoly/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-scandalous-history-of-monop...
- Nomentatus 9y ago
  But taught me very different things...
NegativeLatency 9y ago
Counterpoint: Eve Online
- zdkl 9y ago
  Hey credit where credit is due, CCP is working very hard yo make the game enjoyable by the solo/little guys again, more options than straight up grinding. Still, hope you like multiaccount moon mining.
teamonkey 9y ago
> tend to validate the pet theories of the economists I don't think that's really true. I don't think any game company or designer cares about forcing a pet economic theory to work. More that game economies have a purpose and can be explicitly modelled to achieve that purpose, even if that means doing unrealistic things (such as conjure up resources out of nowhere). That's not too say that they can't be an effective test model for real world scenarios, if you bear those conceits in mind. If an economy makes players have a bad time, they can jump ship in a way that they can't do in the real world. There is a financial incentive for game designers to build an economy that makes players satisfied. Strictly modelling a game on real life economic policies is usually not a good way to achieve this. Vast resource inequality between players is a good way to kill a multiplayer game, for example - unless you even the divide in some way, only those at the very top want to keep playing.
- rtpg 9y ago
  I agree that game designers are also trying to make a system that's a good game. But I do understand GP's point here, insofar as the designers have to build the system within a certain frame of reference. As an adjacent example, City Skylines is a pretty fun city builder. A huge simulation, down to very complex traffic models. You can build sprawling cities with a bunch of highways. But it's extremely hard to build anything that replicates old European cities, or denser cities like in Asia, because your smallest useful road is very big in relation to the buildings. The tools given to you basically point you directly to American-style zoning that leads to suburban sprawl and huge highway systems. In a sense, that's the point of the game (to make you fight traffic), but it's difficult if you are trying to build a certain kind of city that we know exist and are, in fact, "better cities". The simulation presents a certain worldview of how cities are built.
- michaelt 9y ago
  If you're designing Sim City or Cities Skylines, your balancing decisions will still reflect theories though. For example, mixing commercial and residential buildings - will it work or not?

Retric 9y ago

I think the biggest difference is most games tend to have anything not dead + positive resource stream = a win. People tend to build city's / county's / etc that go through a major such phase to maximize resource collection. In reality you generally don't want to have 40 years of suck to get to some long term gain, because you need to live those 40 years.

lione 9y ago
You mean some sort of great leap forward produces negative results for your citizens until it's completed? I swear I heard a story similar to that in reality.
- Retric 9y ago
  The thing is relative to most developing nations China has had very slow economic growth. Yes, with a massive population, but China ranks 110 by purchasing power per person. It's economy is terrible, the only thing it has going for it is scale. And it's not like it has a massive population density either ranking at #80 world wide.
  - hobbes78 9y ago
    http://www.theamericanconservative.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/ChinaGDP_2e.jpg http://www.theamericanconservative.com/wp-content/uploads/20...
    - Retric 9y ago
      developing nations USA in 1980 was already a developed nation with a high relative standard of living. It could only grow GDP by inventing new technology and process not simply import proven tech. China's continued failures are massive and ongoing. Some numbers look ok relative to their past failures but that's about it.

gdubs 9y ago

I don’t have a source — lazy Saturday here — but I recall something about city planners using Sim City back in the day as part of their education, which horrified Will Wright since in his words (paraphrasing) “sim city is just cellular automata with some differential equations sprinkled on top.”

RandomInteger4 9y ago
Dear god ... that game makes so much more sense now when seen in that light. I can't believe I haven't made the connection before considering much I enjoy cellular automata.
ebcode 9y ago
Yeah, but who's to say that real cities aren't just cellular automata? They kind of look that way from space.
- gowld 9y ago
  Even if they are, they don't have the same rules as SimCity's
  - CalRobert 9y ago
    Indeed, though in some cases it reveals that the problem is likely how we design actual cities. http://humantransit.org/2013/05/how-sim-city-greenwashes-parking.html http://humantransit.org/2013/05/how-sim-city-greenwashes-par...

skookumchuck 9y ago

For example, the classic board game "Monopoly" was invented to push an economic agenda: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-scandalous-history-of-monopoly/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-scandalous-history-of-monop...

Nomentatus 9y ago
But taught me very different things...

NegativeLatency 9y ago

Counterpoint: Eve Online

zdkl 9y ago
Hey credit where credit is due, CCP is working very hard yo make the game enjoyable by the solo/little guys again, more options than straight up grinding. Still, hope you like multiaccount moon mining.

teamonkey 9y ago

> tend to validate the pet theories of the economists I don't think that's really true. I don't think any game company or designer cares about forcing a pet economic theory to work. More that game economies have a purpose and can be explicitly modelled to achieve that purpose, even if that means doing unrealistic things (such as conjure up resources out of nowhere). That's not too say that they can't be an effective test model for real world scenarios, if you bear those conceits in mind. If an economy makes players have a bad time, they can jump ship in a way that they can't do in the real world. There is a financial incentive for game designers to build an economy that makes players satisfied. Strictly modelling a game on real life economic policies is usually not a good way to achieve this. Vast resource inequality between players is a good way to kill a multiplayer game, for example - unless you even the divide in some way, only those at the very top want to keep playing.

rtpg 9y ago
I agree that game designers are also trying to make a system that's a good game. But I do understand GP's point here, insofar as the designers have to build the system within a certain frame of reference. As an adjacent example, City Skylines is a pretty fun city builder. A huge simulation, down to very complex traffic models. You can build sprawling cities with a bunch of highways. But it's extremely hard to build anything that replicates old European cities, or denser cities like in Asia, because your smallest useful road is very big in relation to the buildings. The tools given to you basically point you directly to American-style zoning that leads to suburban sprawl and huge highway systems. In a sense, that's the point of the game (to make you fight traffic), but it's difficult if you are trying to build a certain kind of city that we know exist and are, in fact, "better cities". The simulation presents a certain worldview of how cities are built.
michaelt 9y ago
If you're designing Sim City or Cities Skylines, your balancing decisions will still reflect theories though. For example, mixing commercial and residential buildings - will it work or not?