4 ms·

No, not needing storage is an advantage under any conceivable scenario. Storage of any kind is bulky, expensive, and dangerous.

toomuchtodo 9y ago
As long as you solve the waste issue. If you can't solve nuclear waste, cheap batteries, solar, and wind will beat you every time. And you better be able to deliver for under 8 cents/kwh, which is where battery backed renewables are currently at (and that will continue to fall).
- paulddraper 9y ago
  Yes. The waste issue has already been more or less solved. Whether the cost can be made sufficiently cheap is another question. Inflation adjusted estimates have (somehow) been climbing since 60s when we actually built nuclear plants.
  - toomuchtodo 9y ago
    Can you provide a citation for waste being solved? My understanding is that there is no long term storage facility, all waste is being stored in "temporary" facilities on site, and that any reactor capable of reprocessing nuclear waste ("burning it up") has never been operated at commercial scale. https://www.gao.gov/key_issues/disposal_of_highlevel_nuclear_waste/issue_summary https://www.gao.gov/key_issues/disposal_of_highlevel_nuclear... https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2016/11/nuclear-waste-wipp-new-mexico/506117/ https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2016/11/nucle... https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-nuclear-environment-idUSKBN18M2OP https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-nuclear-environment-i...
    - paulddraper 9y ago
      France had been recycling waste for decades. The US is building the Yucca facility, but politics have held it up. Generally, the nuclear waste problem is political not technical. And once nuclear waste becomes more than an academic question, the solution will magically appear. http://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/nuclear-fuel-cycle/fuel-recycling/processing-of-used-nuclear-fuel.aspx http://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/nuclear-fue...
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
      - toomuchtodo 9y ago
        Unfortunately, without a legitimate method of disposing of nuclear waste today (despite France reprocessing some nuclear waste, they still bury large amounts underground) at the scale we've generated it, I'll continue to oppose nuclear power and advocate for renewables and battery storage. Nuclear advocates hand wave away the waste concerns as "solvable", yet they're never solved. You can't craft policy in such a way, as it's just yet another example of kicking the can to future generations. If you can prove that recycling facilities are in place and ready to accept waste on day 1 of a new facility coming online, that would be cause to advocate for nuclear.
        acidburnNSA 9y ago
        Your point is reasonable as stated for sure. I'd like to add to the conversation that there's a used fuel repository facility in Finland that's under construction now and is very likely to be the first permanent solution for nuclear waste [1]. The geologists I've talked to are very confident that deep geologic storage is a solid technical solution. I'd also like to point out that the magnitude of nuclear waste is extremely small, due to the unbelievably energy density of nuclear fuel (2 million times more energy per mass than chemical energy). All the waste ever generated in the US fits in a football field a few stories high. It's incredibly small, albeit dangerous stuff. But that means it's even more reasonable to think we can bury it responsibly, without kicking the can. There's also been good storage of waste in salt deposits down at WIPP [2]. We know that water moves centimeters in there in hundreds of thousands of years, so the radioisotopes will be well contained outside the biosphere until well after they've decayed to harmlessness. I'd also plead with you to advocate nuclear energy in addition to renewables and battery storage. We need them all. You obviously are aware that batteries and vast fields of solar and wind and hydro have land/waste/cost/and carbon footprints of their own. I beg you to fairly compare those footprints with the footprints of nuclear energy. Nukes and the intermittent renewables must be partners in our major quest to decarbonize. Future generations will be much happier with us if we stop emitting carbon than if we safely bury tiny amounts of radioactive waste. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onkalo_spent_nuclear_fuel_repository https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onkalo_spent_nuclear_fuel_repo... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_Isolation_Pilot_Plant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_Isolation_Pilot_Plant
OrganicMSG 9y ago
Distributed battery storage is getting cheaper than upgrading the interconnects right now though. Never mind the generation, it is getting cheaper than the wire.
bobthepanda 9y ago
Is it any more dangerous or complicated than diesel fuel, generators, and keeping pumps and a fuel supply around?

toomuchtodo 9y ago

As long as you solve the waste issue. If you can't solve nuclear waste, cheap batteries, solar, and wind will beat you every time. And you better be able to deliver for under 8 cents/kwh, which is where battery backed renewables are currently at (and that will continue to fall).

paulddraper 9y ago
Yes. The waste issue has already been more or less solved. Whether the cost can be made sufficiently cheap is another question. Inflation adjusted estimates have (somehow) been climbing since 60s when we actually built nuclear plants.
- toomuchtodo 9y ago
  Can you provide a citation for waste being solved? My understanding is that there is no long term storage facility, all waste is being stored in "temporary" facilities on site, and that any reactor capable of reprocessing nuclear waste ("burning it up") has never been operated at commercial scale. https://www.gao.gov/key_issues/disposal_of_highlevel_nuclear_waste/issue_summary https://www.gao.gov/key_issues/disposal_of_highlevel_nuclear... https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2016/11/nuclear-waste-wipp-new-mexico/506117/ https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2016/11/nucle... https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-nuclear-environment-idUSKBN18M2OP https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-nuclear-environment-i...
  - paulddraper 9y ago
    France had been recycling waste for decades. The US is building the Yucca facility, but politics have held it up. Generally, the nuclear waste problem is political not technical. And once nuclear waste becomes more than an academic question, the solution will magically appear. http://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/nuclear-fuel-cycle/fuel-recycling/processing-of-used-nuclear-fuel.aspx http://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/nuclear-fue...
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - toomuchtodo 9y ago
      Unfortunately, without a legitimate method of disposing of nuclear waste today (despite France reprocessing some nuclear waste, they still bury large amounts underground) at the scale we've generated it, I'll continue to oppose nuclear power and advocate for renewables and battery storage. Nuclear advocates hand wave away the waste concerns as "solvable", yet they're never solved. You can't craft policy in such a way, as it's just yet another example of kicking the can to future generations. If you can prove that recycling facilities are in place and ready to accept waste on day 1 of a new facility coming online, that would be cause to advocate for nuclear.
      - acidburnNSA 9y ago
        Your point is reasonable as stated for sure. I'd like to add to the conversation that there's a used fuel repository facility in Finland that's under construction now and is very likely to be the first permanent solution for nuclear waste [1]. The geologists I've talked to are very confident that deep geologic storage is a solid technical solution. I'd also like to point out that the magnitude of nuclear waste is extremely small, due to the unbelievably energy density of nuclear fuel (2 million times more energy per mass than chemical energy). All the waste ever generated in the US fits in a football field a few stories high. It's incredibly small, albeit dangerous stuff. But that means it's even more reasonable to think we can bury it responsibly, without kicking the can. There's also been good storage of waste in salt deposits down at WIPP [2]. We know that water moves centimeters in there in hundreds of thousands of years, so the radioisotopes will be well contained outside the biosphere until well after they've decayed to harmlessness. I'd also plead with you to advocate nuclear energy in addition to renewables and battery storage. We need them all. You obviously are aware that batteries and vast fields of solar and wind and hydro have land/waste/cost/and carbon footprints of their own. I beg you to fairly compare those footprints with the footprints of nuclear energy. Nukes and the intermittent renewables must be partners in our major quest to decarbonize. Future generations will be much happier with us if we stop emitting carbon than if we safely bury tiny amounts of radioactive waste. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onkalo_spent_nuclear_fuel_repository https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onkalo_spent_nuclear_fuel_repo... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_Isolation_Pilot_Plant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_Isolation_Pilot_Plant

OrganicMSG 9y ago

Distributed battery storage is getting cheaper than upgrading the interconnects right now though. Never mind the generation, it is getting cheaper than the wire.

bobthepanda 9y ago

Is it any more dangerous or complicated than diesel fuel, generators, and keeping pumps and a fuel supply around?