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Imagine for a minute that in some moderate sized state in the US, radical left or radical right individuals organized and violently overthrew the government by

Imagine for a minute that in some moderate sized state in the US, radical left or radical right individuals organized and violently overthrew the government by force with tens of thousands of 'soldiers.' And then they started living up to every imagined stereotype of their ideology. Can you imagine how that would change this country? How would you respond? I expect we would almost certainly end up going hard in the opposite ideological direction of whomever did it. This a crucial point in understanding how and why it was so [relatively] 'easy' for quite absurd views to start to take hold.

matt4077 9y ago
Okay, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. But since you're now rather explicitly stating that the rise of the Nazis was the fault of some decidedly comical[0] anarcho-communists, I'm just going to mention that it was not. 1918/19 was a time of turmoil not easily compared to anything you may know. Very little of the events of the time fit neatly into any cause-and-effect timeline. One dominant symptom, but not necessarily cause, was open fighting in the streets between extremist groups of all stripes. You local communist pseudo-revolution doesn't even figure prominently among local communist pseudo-revolutions of the time. It's much easier to clearly identify the (rather few) Germans who didn't succumb to the temptation of fascism. Social democrats would figure very prominently in such an analysis. Every other group of society, from old elites in politics, the military, or business, from academia to the clergy, became essential to the rise of Hitler, each in their own specific way. [0]: seriously: read the Wikipedia article. Their Foreign Secretary complained to the Swiss that the key to the loo was missing!
- TangoTrotFox 9y ago
  The initial leadership was made up of social and popular figures (playwrights, writers, etc). You need popular figures to drive numbers. These individuals were useful idiots who were in power for 6 days before communist forces, rapidly acknowledged by Lenin, seized control and began their reign of terror. And while this played a critical role in 'setting the stage' that enabled the rise of the Nazis, it certainly was not the sole cause. But in either case, simply ignoring this event is likely to lead to flawed logic.
crdoconnor 9y ago
I imagine if any county in the US had an independence movement that lasted a month it would probably be starved and invaded... much like Bavaria was. I don't think a month of political chaos and severed economic ties is really a long enough time to live up to any stereotype. It would be like judging the effectiveness of the German economic machine on the basis that Berlin was still a total mess 1 month after the war ended.
mikeash 9y ago
Why imagine? We experienced this in the 1860s. Unfortunately our reaction was not to veer hard in the opposite direction, and much of the rebels’ ideology persists in our government to this day.
- skrebbel 9y ago
  I'd like to understand your comment better but I really have a hard time understanding what happened in the USA in the 1860s. Just like TangoTrotFox was kind enough to assume that not everybody here knows Bavarian history by heart, can you not assume everybody here is American? I googled for "USA 1860s" and followed some links but I can't get further than stuff like the "Dakota War of 1862" which I doubt is what you're referring to.
  - matt4077 9y ago
    They’re referring to the civil war.
    - skrebbel 9y ago
      Oh right, of course. Thanks.
- linksnapzz 9y ago
  For starters, the south didn't overthrow anyone's government; they opted to leave the Federal union. Secondly, there was no appetite for continuing the war longer than 1865, or for extending Reconstruction much past Grant's term of office. A prolonged occupation of the south, such that white people there could be taught that white-supermacy-is-wrong-m'kay at gunpoint until they finally understood...that doesn't happen in this timeline or any proximate one.

matt4077 9y ago

Okay, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. But since you're now rather explicitly stating that the rise of the Nazis was the fault of some decidedly comical[0] anarcho-communists, I'm just going to mention that it was not. 1918/19 was a time of turmoil not easily compared to anything you may know. Very little of the events of the time fit neatly into any cause-and-effect timeline. One dominant symptom, but not necessarily cause, was open fighting in the streets between extremist groups of all stripes. You local communist pseudo-revolution doesn't even figure prominently among local communist pseudo-revolutions of the time. It's much easier to clearly identify the (rather few) Germans who didn't succumb to the temptation of fascism. Social democrats would figure very prominently in such an analysis. Every other group of society, from old elites in politics, the military, or business, from academia to the clergy, became essential to the rise of Hitler, each in their own specific way. [0]: seriously: read the Wikipedia article. Their Foreign Secretary complained to the Swiss that the key to the loo was missing!

TangoTrotFox 9y ago
The initial leadership was made up of social and popular figures (playwrights, writers, etc). You need popular figures to drive numbers. These individuals were useful idiots who were in power for 6 days before communist forces, rapidly acknowledged by Lenin, seized control and began their reign of terror. And while this played a critical role in 'setting the stage' that enabled the rise of the Nazis, it certainly was not the sole cause. But in either case, simply ignoring this event is likely to lead to flawed logic.

crdoconnor 9y ago

I imagine if any county in the US had an independence movement that lasted a month it would probably be starved and invaded... much like Bavaria was. I don't think a month of political chaos and severed economic ties is really a long enough time to live up to any stereotype. It would be like judging the effectiveness of the German economic machine on the basis that Berlin was still a total mess 1 month after the war ended.

mikeash 9y ago

Why imagine? We experienced this in the 1860s. Unfortunately our reaction was not to veer hard in the opposite direction, and much of the rebels’ ideology persists in our government to this day.

skrebbel 9y ago
I'd like to understand your comment better but I really have a hard time understanding what happened in the USA in the 1860s. Just like TangoTrotFox was kind enough to assume that not everybody here knows Bavarian history by heart, can you not assume everybody here is American? I googled for "USA 1860s" and followed some links but I can't get further than stuff like the "Dakota War of 1862" which I doubt is what you're referring to.
- matt4077 9y ago
  They’re referring to the civil war.
  - skrebbel 9y ago
    Oh right, of course. Thanks.
linksnapzz 9y ago
For starters, the south didn't overthrow anyone's government; they opted to leave the Federal union. Secondly, there was no appetite for continuing the war longer than 1865, or for extending Reconstruction much past Grant's term of office. A prolonged occupation of the south, such that white people there could be taught that white-supermacy-is-wrong-m'kay at gunpoint until they finally understood...that doesn't happen in this timeline or any proximate one.