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You know the other side of this? Sometimes those bright ideas are 1) not very bright at all or 2) bright but utterly wrong for the current context. A mature or

You know the other side of this? Sometimes those bright ideas are 1) not very bright at all or 2) bright but utterly wrong for the current context. A mature or maturing developer will learn to adjust their input to match the context. An immature developer will sulk and want to "just code" and blame everybody else around them for not encouraging their creativity or whatever. That's the tough thing about articles like this. It's an article that is 100% correct, assuming that the developer in question is both talented and on the cusp of enough maturity to grow in response to gentle redirection rather than bristle at it. Problem is, that's a narrow band on the immature/mature spectrum. A more mature developer would address their concerns, a less mature developer will bristle at everything anyway.

ergothus 9y ago
I don't disagree, but how do you define a "mature" developer in this context without getting into a circular definition? Like "professional", it can easily boil down to "does what I like the way I like" if we don't share an understanding of any objective reference.
- weeksie 9y ago
  That's a fair criticism. I tend to think of maturity as: * Separating one's immediate emotions from a decision making process * Proficiency with perspective taking * A basket of traits along the patience/conscientiousness axis Those traits often improve with age which is why I tend to lump them under maturity.
NPMaxwell 9y ago
Problem is, as far as the coder is aware, the ideas are dismissed before the manager knows that the ideas were. Maybe bright; maybe not. Usually no explanation is made for why the ideas were dismissed. If an explanation is made, the coder isn't being disrespected and doesn't go down this path.
- weeksie 9y ago
  In a perfect world, sure! The thesis of the article was that the _reason_ developers only want to code is because they aren't being given explanations. While that might be the case sometimes, it's nothing near a hard and fast rule. In fact, sulky behavior is often an indicator of immaturity even if the management also sucks.
BaronSamedi 9y ago
You ascribe this to maturity, and while I agree, I think the more fundamental issue is one of developer talent and ability. Bright ideas from developers lacking these is not just unhelpful it is an active hindrance. Dealing with bad ideas takes time and energy, and people with little competence are often the most vocal. As for maturity, what works the best in my view is to hire people of equally high competence but with different levels of experience. You need those people with 30 years experience, just as you need those right out of college. The former provides wisdom and the latter enthusiasm and optimism.

ergothus 9y ago

I don't disagree, but how do you define a "mature" developer in this context without getting into a circular definition? Like "professional", it can easily boil down to "does what I like the way I like" if we don't share an understanding of any objective reference.

weeksie 9y ago
That's a fair criticism. I tend to think of maturity as: * Separating one's immediate emotions from a decision making process * Proficiency with perspective taking * A basket of traits along the patience/conscientiousness axis Those traits often improve with age which is why I tend to lump them under maturity.

NPMaxwell 9y ago

Problem is, as far as the coder is aware, the ideas are dismissed before the manager knows that the ideas were. Maybe bright; maybe not. Usually no explanation is made for why the ideas were dismissed. If an explanation is made, the coder isn't being disrespected and doesn't go down this path.

weeksie 9y ago
In a perfect world, sure! The thesis of the article was that the _reason_ developers only want to code is because they aren't being given explanations. While that might be the case sometimes, it's nothing near a hard and fast rule. In fact, sulky behavior is often an indicator of immaturity even if the management also sucks.

BaronSamedi 9y ago

You ascribe this to maturity, and while I agree, I think the more fundamental issue is one of developer talent and ability. Bright ideas from developers lacking these is not just unhelpful it is an active hindrance. Dealing with bad ideas takes time and energy, and people with little competence are often the most vocal. As for maturity, what works the best in my view is to hire people of equally high competence but with different levels of experience. You need those people with 30 years experience, just as you need those right out of college. The former provides wisdom and the latter enthusiasm and optimism.