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> Except we already have the powers to stop this low-wage immigration. The EU allows member countries full ability to protect their borders from these immigrant

> Except we already have the powers to stop this low-wage immigration. The EU allows member countries full ability to protect their borders from these immigrants, we just choose not to. How can that be? Doesn't freedom of movement imply freedom to live and work wherever you want?

jimnotgym 9y ago
The EU provides limited freedom of movement. What you ordinarilly get is an automatic 3 month via to find work. There are lots of limits on it, which are up to the member states to enforce if they want to. If you move to some EU countries and try to live on benefits then you get deported for visa violations. In the UK it seems the government felt it was cheaper to lay off the border control officers and let people do what they want, but then complain that they are doing whatever they want.
- vilmosi 9y ago
  I'm sorry but we're not talking about unemployed people on benefits, we're talking about low skilled workers who pay taxes and are exercising their right to free movement. Emphasis on "right". Baring a few exceptional cases such as criminal activity, I am not aware of any limitations the UK can implement to control this (for now).
  - jimnotgym 9y ago
    I'm struggling to find the reference I wanted to share, but here is the right to control migration from a new member country, which presumably are the lowest wage areas[0]. Britain chose not to exercise this right in the first place, so it seems fallacious to suggest that the government would exercise further restrictions if it could. It was explained to me by an economist (Roger Martin-Fagg) as a deliberate policy (and why the UK lobbied the EU so hard to move east, the irony) to add more young people to the UK workforce because of low productivity and most particularly the pension crisis. You are correct of course that extra people coming into a profession could cause stagnation of wages, but it is usually far more complicated than that. In the UK, despite all of this immigration we have rather low rates of unemployment, marginally lower than before the 2004 expansion of the EU. This seems counterintuitive if wage growth is an over-supply problem. It is also not true to say that an industry will just keep paying more and more to attract workers from other sectors. This soon hits the point in the modern globalised world that the industry just becomes uncompetetive and closes down, outsources, invests in labour reducing machinery, or moves. Wage stagnation is very real in Britain however, and for pointers to the cause you might want to look at why non wage inflation has been so low for so long, putting aside the last 18 months of FX driven inflation caused by comparatively weak sterling post Brexit vote (This adds around 15% to most imported goods). [0]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_movement_for_workers_in_the_European_Union#Transitional_provisions_in_new_member_states https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_movement_for_worker...
    - vilmosi 9y ago
      > Britain chose not to exercise this right in the first place, so it seems fallacious to suggest that the government would exercise further restrictions if it could. It's not fallacious and the UK did do that [0] for 7 years after they realised that the A8 migration estimates were incredibly wrong. > In the UK, despite all of this immigration we have rather low rates of unemployment, marginally lower than before the 2004 expansion of the EU First of all, no one here said immigration is causing unemployment, just wage stagnation for certain industries. Second of all, it's not "counterintuitive", immigrants tend to move to areas with low unemployment so I would expect the above to be the case anyway. Most immigrants wouldn't come if there were no jobs. > This soon hits the point in the modern globalised world that the industry just becomes uncompetetive and closes down, outsources, invests in labour reducing machinery, or moves But that's not what's happening here, as you said, the jobs are still here (low unemployment). They're not automated or outsourced, they're done manually for minimum wage (or lower) by hard working immigrants from poorer countries. I have to say, you kind of changed the topic. We were discussing about the existence of limitations for low skilled workforce, not whether or not Brexit was a good idea. [0] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25565302 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25565302
      - fao_ 9y ago
        > Most immigrants wouldn't come if there were no jobs. That's fallacious. Perception of a market does not always match actual figures about that market.
        vilmosi 9y ago
        Probably but we're talking about the UK here.
      - jimnotgym 9y ago
        > But that's not what's happening here, as you said, the jobs are still here (low unemployment). They're not automated or outsourced, they're done manually for minimum wage (or lower) by hard working immigrants from poorer countries. If this new labour force had not appeared are you seriously suggesting that UK employers would just have paid more and more to attract workers from other sectors? How would they remain competitive?
ben_w 9y ago
I tried to move to Germany recently, only gave up because family in UK needed help with parent with Alzheimer’s. As an EU citizens, I have a right to go there and work. Work requires a tax code. Tax code requires a permanent address in Germany. Most places you can live require a job and good credit history. I could bootstrap that by buying a place in Germany, and I might still do that if I am confident I understand foreclosure auctions well enough, but it’s amazing what a little creative bureaucracy can do to slow things down.
- vilmosi 9y ago
  While I agree with you in general, you're just describing the hassle of moving, which has nothing to do with the EU. Requiring a work permit for EU citizens (like the UK did) is a better example of a bureaucracy designed to limit immigration but that doesn't generally fly with the EU.
  - ben_w 9y ago
    A fair criticism. May I add that while people can work in the UK while waiting for their NI number (effectively UK tax code), the German residence/ID system seems to be necessary for everything starting at language courses and going up? https://www.gov.uk/apply-national-insurance-number https://www.gov.uk/apply-national-insurance-number https://www.settle-in-berlin.com/anmeldung/ https://www.settle-in-berlin.com/anmeldung/
    - nicbou 9y ago
      That's correct. You need the Meldebescheinigung (given during the Anmeldung) to open a bank account, and you need a bank account to find an apartment, and you need an apartment to do the Anmeldung (it requires a fixed address). It's pure madness. I actually run a blog documenting the (sometimes insane) German bureaucracy. It's not nearly as bad as people think, but things like getting an Ausländerbehörde (immigration office) appointment can be a real pain. Fortunately, it has improved a lot in the last 3 years. The Settle in Berlin article is completely outdated. http://allaboutberlin.com/guides/berlin-auslanderbehorde-same-day-appointment http://allaboutberlin.com/guides/berlin-auslanderbehorde-sam...

jimnotgym 9y ago

The EU provides limited freedom of movement. What you ordinarilly get is an automatic 3 month via to find work. There are lots of limits on it, which are up to the member states to enforce if they want to. If you move to some EU countries and try to live on benefits then you get deported for visa violations. In the UK it seems the government felt it was cheaper to lay off the border control officers and let people do what they want, but then complain that they are doing whatever they want.

vilmosi 9y ago
I'm sorry but we're not talking about unemployed people on benefits, we're talking about low skilled workers who pay taxes and are exercising their right to free movement. Emphasis on "right". Baring a few exceptional cases such as criminal activity, I am not aware of any limitations the UK can implement to control this (for now).
- jimnotgym 9y ago
  I'm struggling to find the reference I wanted to share, but here is the right to control migration from a new member country, which presumably are the lowest wage areas[0]. Britain chose not to exercise this right in the first place, so it seems fallacious to suggest that the government would exercise further restrictions if it could. It was explained to me by an economist (Roger Martin-Fagg) as a deliberate policy (and why the UK lobbied the EU so hard to move east, the irony) to add more young people to the UK workforce because of low productivity and most particularly the pension crisis. You are correct of course that extra people coming into a profession could cause stagnation of wages, but it is usually far more complicated than that. In the UK, despite all of this immigration we have rather low rates of unemployment, marginally lower than before the 2004 expansion of the EU. This seems counterintuitive if wage growth is an over-supply problem. It is also not true to say that an industry will just keep paying more and more to attract workers from other sectors. This soon hits the point in the modern globalised world that the industry just becomes uncompetetive and closes down, outsources, invests in labour reducing machinery, or moves. Wage stagnation is very real in Britain however, and for pointers to the cause you might want to look at why non wage inflation has been so low for so long, putting aside the last 18 months of FX driven inflation caused by comparatively weak sterling post Brexit vote (This adds around 15% to most imported goods). [0]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_movement_for_workers_in_the_European_Union#Transitional_provisions_in_new_member_states https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_movement_for_worker...
  - vilmosi 9y ago
    > Britain chose not to exercise this right in the first place, so it seems fallacious to suggest that the government would exercise further restrictions if it could. It's not fallacious and the UK did do that [0] for 7 years after they realised that the A8 migration estimates were incredibly wrong. > In the UK, despite all of this immigration we have rather low rates of unemployment, marginally lower than before the 2004 expansion of the EU First of all, no one here said immigration is causing unemployment, just wage stagnation for certain industries. Second of all, it's not "counterintuitive", immigrants tend to move to areas with low unemployment so I would expect the above to be the case anyway. Most immigrants wouldn't come if there were no jobs. > This soon hits the point in the modern globalised world that the industry just becomes uncompetetive and closes down, outsources, invests in labour reducing machinery, or moves But that's not what's happening here, as you said, the jobs are still here (low unemployment). They're not automated or outsourced, they're done manually for minimum wage (or lower) by hard working immigrants from poorer countries. I have to say, you kind of changed the topic. We were discussing about the existence of limitations for low skilled workforce, not whether or not Brexit was a good idea. [0] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25565302 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25565302
    - fao_ 9y ago
      > Most immigrants wouldn't come if there were no jobs. That's fallacious. Perception of a market does not always match actual figures about that market.
      - vilmosi 9y ago
        Probably but we're talking about the UK here.
    - jimnotgym 9y ago
      > But that's not what's happening here, as you said, the jobs are still here (low unemployment). They're not automated or outsourced, they're done manually for minimum wage (or lower) by hard working immigrants from poorer countries. If this new labour force had not appeared are you seriously suggesting that UK employers would just have paid more and more to attract workers from other sectors? How would they remain competitive?

ben_w 9y ago

I tried to move to Germany recently, only gave up because family in UK needed help with parent with Alzheimer’s. As an EU citizens, I have a right to go there and work. Work requires a tax code. Tax code requires a permanent address in Germany. Most places you can live require a job and good credit history. I could bootstrap that by buying a place in Germany, and I might still do that if I am confident I understand foreclosure auctions well enough, but it’s amazing what a little creative bureaucracy can do to slow things down.

vilmosi 9y ago
While I agree with you in general, you're just describing the hassle of moving, which has nothing to do with the EU. Requiring a work permit for EU citizens (like the UK did) is a better example of a bureaucracy designed to limit immigration but that doesn't generally fly with the EU.
- ben_w 9y ago
  A fair criticism. May I add that while people can work in the UK while waiting for their NI number (effectively UK tax code), the German residence/ID system seems to be necessary for everything starting at language courses and going up? https://www.gov.uk/apply-national-insurance-number https://www.gov.uk/apply-national-insurance-number https://www.settle-in-berlin.com/anmeldung/ https://www.settle-in-berlin.com/anmeldung/
  - nicbou 9y ago
    That's correct. You need the Meldebescheinigung (given during the Anmeldung) to open a bank account, and you need a bank account to find an apartment, and you need an apartment to do the Anmeldung (it requires a fixed address). It's pure madness. I actually run a blog documenting the (sometimes insane) German bureaucracy. It's not nearly as bad as people think, but things like getting an Ausländerbehörde (immigration office) appointment can be a real pain. Fortunately, it has improved a lot in the last 3 years. The Settle in Berlin article is completely outdated. http://allaboutberlin.com/guides/berlin-auslanderbehorde-same-day-appointment http://allaboutberlin.com/guides/berlin-auslanderbehorde-sam...