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>What do any of those things have to do with the EU? Low wage immigration from Eastern Europe has put downward pressure on UK wages. Except in certain sectors

>What do any of those things have to do with the EU? Low wage immigration from Eastern Europe has put downward pressure on UK wages. Except in certain sectors wages haven't actually gone down, but they would have gone up a lot more without the competition, and relative to things like rent and educational costs they really have gone down. I think Remainers' persistent refusal to acknowledge this played right in to the hands of the pro-Brexit lot. >Brexit supporters are in favour of more global trade with countries like China, and lower environmental and labor standards. They hated the EU because it was precisely the opposite: A self-sustaining trading bloc made up of mostly successful, developed democracies, with (relatively) strong regulatory protection for workers and the rule of law. Brexit supporters were largely just angry with the status quo and were essentially casting a protest vote. It's all very well telling people that that was the "wrong" way of registering their protest but British democracy didn't really provide a lot of options in that respect.

simon_o 9y ago
> Low wage immigration from Eastern Europe has put downward pressure on UK wages. How is this Europe's fault? That was a decision made by the UK, not the EU.
- crdoconnor 9y ago
  It isnt and I didn't say it was.
fao_ 9y ago
> I think Remainers' persistent refusal to acknowledge this played right in to the hands of the pro-Brexit lot. Except we already have the powers to stop this low-wage immigration. The EU allows member countries full ability to protect their borders from these immigrants, we just choose not to. Look at France, Germany, etc. for countries that properly enforce their borders. In addition, if a proper living wage were enacted for all residents of the UK, including recent migrants, then companies would not be able to pay migrants less for their labour, and companies would no longer favour economic migrants. Although to be fair, the sort of work that economic migrants do is usually considered to be below the capacity of the average British person. > Brexit supporters were largely just angry with the status quo and were essentially casting a protest vote. Indeed. But you cannot say that there was no warning at all. The London School of Economics and many others openly stated that leaving the EU would be disastrous. Instead, these people decided to listen to the likes of... Boris Johnson. Someone who has a long history for making openly racist towards other countries.
- crdoconnor 9y ago
  >Except we already have the powers to stop this low-wage immigration. I know. Nonetheless, nobody who runs a media outlet actually wants to acknowledge this and elites on both sides Brexit campaign didn't either, so it was always going to remain largely unknown to the general public. >In addition, if a proper living wage were enacted for all residents of the UK, including recent migrants, then companies would not be able to pay migrants less for their labour Yep, but that would savage profits. Elites on the pro-Brexit side didn't want this, elites on the anti-Brexit side didn't want this. Tories don't want it and centrists in the Labour party didn't want it. The only person with any power who actually wants this is Corbyn and in 2015 almost nobody paid him any attention. >Indeed. But you cannot say that there was no warning at all. The London School of Economics and many others openly stated that leaving the EU would be disastrous. Pretty much anybody who claimed to know the effect of Brexit prior to the referendum was lying. Nobody knew. The outcome would be dependent upon the shape of a deal that hadn't yet been made. It was shocking the number of economists who came out with actual numbers. Monumentally stupid and played right into the Brexiteers' hands. sigh... It's not at all irrational to disbelieve out of touch elites when they tell you that things that they believe will be bad for them are actually bad for you. The number of times we've been condescendingly told by lying elites that jacking up the minimum wage will only trigger mass unemployment is a testament to that.
  - fao_ 9y ago
    > It's not entirely irrational to disbelieve out of touch elites when they tell you that things that are bad for them are bad for you. Except the groups I referred to were university establishments and thinktanks. Much of the outroar came not from the 'elites', so much as middle and lower class professors... > Pretty much anybody who claimed to know the effect of Brexit prior to the referendum was lying. Nobody knew. The outcome would be dependent upon the shape of a deal that hadn't yet been made. No. The main facts that were known before the referendum were: We do not have enough legal staff in the government to handle such a large negotiation. Thus we would have to borrow or outsource much of the more backbreaking legal work to other countries. The implication of leaving the EU implies that we must renegotiate a trade deal with every single country that we are parting with, something that took the EU as a collective _decades_ to do. Britain would be put on the back-foot in any future negotiations, given that other countries are not at risk from completely and utterly losing trade with most of the world given a failed deal, but we are. Strategically it makes sense to not put yourself in such a position. Britian would have to adopt the regulations that many claimed were harmful, if it wanted to trade with the EU, just like every other country that has trade with the EU. It doesn't take a genius to see that this is not a beneficial position to be in as a country. > The outcome would be dependent upon the shape of a deal that hadn't yet been made. The deal still hasn't been made, but we can still predict that the outcome of this will be negative based on facts that are clearer to us now, but were present before the referendum took place. The fact that a large proportion of people admitted that in retrospect they did not know what they were voting for, should have been the point at which we started backpedalling and figuring out where we are.

simon_o 9y ago

> Low wage immigration from Eastern Europe has put downward pressure on UK wages. How is this Europe's fault? That was a decision made by the UK, not the EU.

crdoconnor 9y ago
It isnt and I didn't say it was.

fao_ 9y ago

> I think Remainers' persistent refusal to acknowledge this played right in to the hands of the pro-Brexit lot. Except we already have the powers to stop this low-wage immigration. The EU allows member countries full ability to protect their borders from these immigrants, we just choose not to. Look at France, Germany, etc. for countries that properly enforce their borders. In addition, if a proper living wage were enacted for all residents of the UK, including recent migrants, then companies would not be able to pay migrants less for their labour, and companies would no longer favour economic migrants. Although to be fair, the sort of work that economic migrants do is usually considered to be below the capacity of the average British person. > Brexit supporters were largely just angry with the status quo and were essentially casting a protest vote. Indeed. But you cannot say that there was no warning at all. The London School of Economics and many others openly stated that leaving the EU would be disastrous. Instead, these people decided to listen to the likes of... Boris Johnson. Someone who has a long history for making openly racist towards other countries.

crdoconnor 9y ago
>Except we already have the powers to stop this low-wage immigration. I know. Nonetheless, nobody who runs a media outlet actually wants to acknowledge this and elites on both sides Brexit campaign didn't either, so it was always going to remain largely unknown to the general public. >In addition, if a proper living wage were enacted for all residents of the UK, including recent migrants, then companies would not be able to pay migrants less for their labour Yep, but that would savage profits. Elites on the pro-Brexit side didn't want this, elites on the anti-Brexit side didn't want this. Tories don't want it and centrists in the Labour party didn't want it. The only person with any power who actually wants this is Corbyn and in 2015 almost nobody paid him any attention. >Indeed. But you cannot say that there was no warning at all. The London School of Economics and many others openly stated that leaving the EU would be disastrous. Pretty much anybody who claimed to know the effect of Brexit prior to the referendum was lying. Nobody knew. The outcome would be dependent upon the shape of a deal that hadn't yet been made. It was shocking the number of economists who came out with actual numbers. Monumentally stupid and played right into the Brexiteers' hands. sigh... It's not at all irrational to disbelieve out of touch elites when they tell you that things that they believe will be bad for them are actually bad for you. The number of times we've been condescendingly told by lying elites that jacking up the minimum wage will only trigger mass unemployment is a testament to that.
- fao_ 9y ago
  > It's not entirely irrational to disbelieve out of touch elites when they tell you that things that are bad for them are bad for you. Except the groups I referred to were university establishments and thinktanks. Much of the outroar came not from the 'elites', so much as middle and lower class professors... > Pretty much anybody who claimed to know the effect of Brexit prior to the referendum was lying. Nobody knew. The outcome would be dependent upon the shape of a deal that hadn't yet been made. No. The main facts that were known before the referendum were: We do not have enough legal staff in the government to handle such a large negotiation. Thus we would have to borrow or outsource much of the more backbreaking legal work to other countries. The implication of leaving the EU implies that we must renegotiate a trade deal with every single country that we are parting with, something that took the EU as a collective _decades_ to do. Britain would be put on the back-foot in any future negotiations, given that other countries are not at risk from completely and utterly losing trade with most of the world given a failed deal, but we are. Strategically it makes sense to not put yourself in such a position. Britian would have to adopt the regulations that many claimed were harmful, if it wanted to trade with the EU, just like every other country that has trade with the EU. It doesn't take a genius to see that this is not a beneficial position to be in as a country. > The outcome would be dependent upon the shape of a deal that hadn't yet been made. The deal still hasn't been made, but we can still predict that the outcome of this will be negative based on facts that are clearer to us now, but were present before the referendum took place. The fact that a large proportion of people admitted that in retrospect they did not know what they were voting for, should have been the point at which we started backpedalling and figuring out where we are.