6 ms·

Job guarantee

31 points by hliyan 9y ago

gruez 9y ago
sounds great, until automation takes over and there aren't any jobs in government that can productively done by humans
- chx 9y ago
  Absolutely. It'll happen just after the paperless office happens.
  - ebiester 9y ago
    You say that, but the average office has significantly reduced its paper usage over the last two decades.
- hliyan 9y ago
  I was thinking whether this was an alternative/supplement to universal basic income. Also, whenever there is a significant spread between offer and ask prices in a labor market, can't the state bridge the gap?
yosito 9y ago
Unemployed people should not be given a guaranteed job. They should be paid to pursue further education and qualify themselves for a job that's actually useful.
- grepthisab 9y ago
  Surely there are many “actually useful” jobs that don’t require further education?
  - doikor 9y ago
    If we removed the food stamps and other benefits given to low pay workers and their employers I doubt. Just about anything worth doing needs an education of some kind. There are some that don't really need much/any education (sales, etc) but those usually need a certain kind of personality to be effective at. And the few that truly anyone could do without any education and are paying enough to be productive to the society (not funded by tax payer money through various benefits) are very rare.
    - nine_k 9y ago
      Who would sweep floors then? I see three possibilities. (1) Well-paid cleaners, because cleaning will become necessarily expensive. (2) Workers that do other, much more productive things 95% of the time. (3) Machines. I assume that the list above is sorted by increased probability, on a 5-year horizon.
- frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
  Paid education for the unemployed is just going to lead us even deeper into the over-credentialing race. Half the jobs that require Bachelors now don't need much more than a high school diploma, I'm not sure why we'd encourage more of that.
bobthechef 9y ago
After all, people are less likely to bite the hand that feeds them.
Libturd 9y ago
get outta here, ya commie bastard
pg_bot 9y ago
I don't understand why it is so difficult to kill bad ideas. You can't just magic your way to full employment, the economy does not work that way. "Public sector employment subsidies tend to have negligible or even negative impacts at all horizons."[0] [0]: http://ftp.iza.org/dp9236.pdf http://ftp.iza.org/dp9236.pdf
- jackhack 9y ago
  Communism/Socialism/central planning is making a comeback. It is though every generation must personally re-learn all the painful lessons of history. Quite distressing.
  - gibbitz 9y ago
    The WPA and it's role in coming out of the depression are also lessons from history that people need to re-learn. Everything in moderation.
cryptoz 9y ago
Shouldn't we all be working towards automation and no jobs for people? The end goal of capitalism is full unemployment not full employment. All people should not expect any work to do themselves but rather expect work to be done automatically.
- UncleSlacky 9y ago
  Agreed, but what happens to all the unemployed people who don't own capital? The end goal IMO should be communism, not capitalism, e.g.: https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2015/mar/18/fully-automated-luxury-communism-robots-employment https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2015/mar/18...
- neilwilson 9y ago
  How do you sell stuff when everybody is unemployed. And during the point where everybody isn't quite unemployed why should those working continue to work a full week just to give their output to those not working? Isn't that slavery? How do you get there from here.
nonidentified 9y ago
This is a common economic fallacy. "A job guarantee (JG) is an economic policy proposal aimed at providing a sustainable solution to the dual problems of inflation and unemployment." However, it is economic consensus that inflation is caused by government monetary policy (the "monetarist" view). It is also economic consensus that inflation is destructive and creates unemployment. So if government policy is creating inflation, and therefore unemployment, why would a government "job guarantee" be a sensible response? More alcohol doesn't sober a drunk man; more intervention doesn't balance an economy. As the article correctly notes, "When inflationary expectations subside, [unemployed] people will get their jobs back." So isn't the most sensible solution to have the government stop inflating the currency? That would solve the "dual problems" without introducing a third. It would also be a fair and honest thing to do. After all, inflation is the government's way of raising revenue by cheating (it's "the hidden tax"). As a side note, it amazes me these antique economic fallacies consistently appear on HN, of all places. They are worse than nonsense, they're dangerous. When practiced, they really hurt people. Yes, they might help a few people - but they hurt far more than they help, and for far longer. Consider the government make-work programs during the Great Depression, which are now credited for dragging out that misery. Please, enough with the junk economics. There are far more fruitful government policy discussions to occupy intelligent minds - increasing efficiency, reducing deficits and debt, fighting corruption, stopping war, to name a few. Source: Two degrees in economics.
- hliyan 9y ago
  I'm OP. I posted this because I discovered this with relation to an article I read about MMT, and wanted to understand exactly what you explained, from a person with your qualifications. Your response would have been so much better had it not contained the judgmental side-note. I think debating and dismissing old bad ideas is something that every generation needs to do, lest they reinvent it. My personal belief is that if we stop inflation, it will eliminate the pressure for continuous "growth", because money can now be a store of wealth that no longer leaks value and therefore there will no longer be a need for continuous investment. Perhaps the pace of society can slow down and people can relax. What would your expert opinion on that be?
ikeboy 9y ago
How productive is a worker you can't fire?
- thebigspacefuck 9y ago
  Maybe they are only paid if they are productive?
paulus_magnus2 9y ago
(Based on my experience) the best form of job guarantee is another 10-20 employers willing to hire me.
thebigspacefuck 9y ago
The military's always hiring.
- Retra 9y ago
  Only if you're young and healthy.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

Job guarantee

31 points by hliyan 9y ago

gruez 9y ago

sounds great, until automation takes over and there aren't any jobs in government that can productively done by humans

chx 9y ago
Absolutely. It'll happen just after the paperless office happens.
- ebiester 9y ago
  You say that, but the average office has significantly reduced its paper usage over the last two decades.
hliyan 9y ago
I was thinking whether this was an alternative/supplement to universal basic income. Also, whenever there is a significant spread between offer and ask prices in a labor market, can't the state bridge the gap?

yosito 9y ago

Unemployed people should not be given a guaranteed job. They should be paid to pursue further education and qualify themselves for a job that's actually useful.

grepthisab 9y ago
Surely there are many “actually useful” jobs that don’t require further education?
- doikor 9y ago
  If we removed the food stamps and other benefits given to low pay workers and their employers I doubt. Just about anything worth doing needs an education of some kind. There are some that don't really need much/any education (sales, etc) but those usually need a certain kind of personality to be effective at. And the few that truly anyone could do without any education and are paying enough to be productive to the society (not funded by tax payer money through various benefits) are very rare.
  - nine_k 9y ago
    Who would sweep floors then? I see three possibilities. (1) Well-paid cleaners, because cleaning will become necessarily expensive. (2) Workers that do other, much more productive things 95% of the time. (3) Machines. I assume that the list above is sorted by increased probability, on a 5-year horizon.
frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
Paid education for the unemployed is just going to lead us even deeper into the over-credentialing race. Half the jobs that require Bachelors now don't need much more than a high school diploma, I'm not sure why we'd encourage more of that.

bobthechef 9y ago

After all, people are less likely to bite the hand that feeds them.

Libturd 9y ago

get outta here, ya commie bastard

pg_bot 9y ago

I don't understand why it is so difficult to kill bad ideas. You can't just magic your way to full employment, the economy does not work that way. "Public sector employment subsidies tend to have negligible or even negative impacts at all horizons."[0] [0]: http://ftp.iza.org/dp9236.pdf http://ftp.iza.org/dp9236.pdf

jackhack 9y ago
Communism/Socialism/central planning is making a comeback. It is though every generation must personally re-learn all the painful lessons of history. Quite distressing.
- gibbitz 9y ago
  The WPA and it's role in coming out of the depression are also lessons from history that people need to re-learn. Everything in moderation.

cryptoz 9y ago

Shouldn't we all be working towards automation and no jobs for people? The end goal of capitalism is full unemployment not full employment. All people should not expect any work to do themselves but rather expect work to be done automatically.

UncleSlacky 9y ago
Agreed, but what happens to all the unemployed people who don't own capital? The end goal IMO should be communism, not capitalism, e.g.: https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2015/mar/18/fully-automated-luxury-communism-robots-employment https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2015/mar/18...
neilwilson 9y ago
How do you sell stuff when everybody is unemployed. And during the point where everybody isn't quite unemployed why should those working continue to work a full week just to give their output to those not working? Isn't that slavery? How do you get there from here.

nonidentified 9y ago

This is a common economic fallacy. "A job guarantee (JG) is an economic policy proposal aimed at providing a sustainable solution to the dual problems of inflation and unemployment." However, it is economic consensus that inflation is caused by government monetary policy (the "monetarist" view). It is also economic consensus that inflation is destructive and creates unemployment. So if government policy is creating inflation, and therefore unemployment, why would a government "job guarantee" be a sensible response? More alcohol doesn't sober a drunk man; more intervention doesn't balance an economy. As the article correctly notes, "When inflationary expectations subside, [unemployed] people will get their jobs back." So isn't the most sensible solution to have the government stop inflating the currency? That would solve the "dual problems" without introducing a third. It would also be a fair and honest thing to do. After all, inflation is the government's way of raising revenue by cheating (it's "the hidden tax"). As a side note, it amazes me these antique economic fallacies consistently appear on HN, of all places. They are worse than nonsense, they're dangerous. When practiced, they really hurt people. Yes, they might help a few people - but they hurt far more than they help, and for far longer. Consider the government make-work programs during the Great Depression, which are now credited for dragging out that misery. Please, enough with the junk economics. There are far more fruitful government policy discussions to occupy intelligent minds - increasing efficiency, reducing deficits and debt, fighting corruption, stopping war, to name a few. Source: Two degrees in economics.

hliyan 9y ago
I'm OP. I posted this because I discovered this with relation to an article I read about MMT, and wanted to understand exactly what you explained, from a person with your qualifications. Your response would have been so much better had it not contained the judgmental side-note. I think debating and dismissing old bad ideas is something that every generation needs to do, lest they reinvent it. My personal belief is that if we stop inflation, it will eliminate the pressure for continuous "growth", because money can now be a store of wealth that no longer leaks value and therefore there will no longer be a need for continuous investment. Perhaps the pace of society can slow down and people can relax. What would your expert opinion on that be?

ikeboy 9y ago

How productive is a worker you can't fire?

thebigspacefuck 9y ago
Maybe they are only paid if they are productive?

paulus_magnus2 9y ago

(Based on my experience) the best form of job guarantee is another 10-20 employers willing to hire me.

thebigspacefuck 9y ago

The military's always hiring.

Retra 9y ago
Only if you're young and healthy.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]