27 ms·

What a completely cynical and one sided view of a very complicated situation. First, dumping cheap labor and goods into a country has a very real impact on poor

What a completely cynical and one sided view of a very complicated situation. First, dumping cheap labor and goods into a country has a very real impact on poor and working class people. Second of all, buying cheap crap made in China has a amorality of its own. You are exporting environmental and human suffering in exchange for cheap goods. So let’s not pretend that the pre-brexit economic model is without serious faults.

namelost 9y ago
Rich Brexiteers such as Liam Fox are happy to throw UK producers (especially food producers) under the bus in favour of cheap imports from abroad which have lower environmental standards. The parent is absolutely correct that the pro-Brexit politicans are using the working poor as their useful idiots.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- namelost 9y ago
  Further to this, it is interesting to consider their motivations. Usually trade policy is an attempt to reconcile two conflicting goals: 1. To protect your own industries/producers 2. To grow your export markets abroad They are conflicting, because growing export markets (by striking trade agreements) often requires concessions that may damage sectors of a state's internal market. States attempt to strike the right balance of protectionism and free trade. The Brexiteers' trade policy seemingly values neither protectionism nor free trade. They do not care if they damage UK producers by flooding the UK market with cheap imports. And they do not care if they damage UK exporters by throwing away all the UK's trade agreements and reverting to WTO terms. Why? Because they do not care about trade or industry. For ideological reasons they wish to turn the UK into a low-tax, low-regulation state. Trade and industry are a mere inconvenience to them. The irony is that the UK was already becoming such a state while it was in the EU, and the loss of financial passporting is extremely damaging to the City and thus to the Brexiteers' project. They just haven't realised yet.
TheArcane 9y ago
> buying cheap crap made in China This would probably be true in 2001, but these days most Chinese stuff in my home is of high quality and extremely durable. Like my smartphone, my furniture, my hobby drone.
- feikname 9y ago
  I believe parent main point was about environment impact though.
- baybal2 9y ago
  Then it is buying cheap non-crap, which is even worse for domestic manufacturers
rorykoehler 9y ago
I wouldn't call it cynical because it is totally accurate. The UK financial sectors push back against any sane regulatory control suggested by the EU after the 2007 crash reflects this perfectly.
- branchless 9y ago
  Spot on, The City is a square mile for avoiding taxes, appropriating wealth and crushing workers.
cjalmeida 9y ago
>First, dumping cheap labor and goods into a country has a very real impact on poor and working class people Yup. It keeps inflation in check, and allows them to buy more stuff with their salary, including investing into improving their education and don't actually having to work on low paying jobs. Sometimes I wonder if David Ricardo was from Mars.
- crdoconnor 9y ago
  >Yup. It keeps inflation in check, and allows them to buy more stuff with their salary Cheap labor keeps inflation in check by keeping the salaries low. The upper middle and upper classes reap those benefits, not the people whose salaries were kept low. Repressing lower-middle class and working class salaries low to keep inflation in check is how you end up with Brexit, Trump, Le Pen, Golden Dawn, etc. This is a global phenomenon.
  - cjalmeida 9y ago
    Most of those low paying jobs are taken by immigrants, who are happy to do them given the alternative. Natives, supposedly with better education and jobs, reap the benefits. It's a win-win situation. You don't need to be posh to benefit from migrants cheaply building your home, cleaning your bathroom, or taking care of the children and the elders.
    - Spooky23 9y ago
      It's a win win for the shrinking middle-class and expanding rich class. Not so good for the proles. In America, the options for these folks are basically disability, jail (for men) or being a state supported baby machine. We also offer opiates to help.
      - cjalmeida 9y ago
        Visit any 3rd world country to know what being a real prole means. I have a hard time being sympathetic to folks that were born in a stable an generally safe country, with access to decent (if not prime) education. And all they care during their school years is girls and pot/meth. Than they blame their unemployment on piss poor migrants that can't even speak the language, or asians that studied their asses off with the little they could make. There are good people becoming unemployed due to tech advances. The solution is having them learn new trades - not expelling migrants so they can clean bathrooms for $15/h
stupidcar 9y ago
What do any of those things have to do with the EU? Brexit supporters are in favour of more global trade with countries like China, and lower environmental and labor standards. They hated the EU because it was precisely the opposite: A self-sustaining trading bloc made up of mostly successful, developed democracies, with (relatively) strong regulatory protection for workers and the rule of law. Corporate interests know that, in a struggle, size is what matters. Multi-national corporations can effectively bully the governments of individual countries far more easily than they can a supranational collection of governments who resist being played off against each other. Faced with a lack of success forcing the EU to deregulate, these interests have instead switched to trying to undermine the institution itself, by funding populist campaigns that blame economic problems on the EU, even though it was under-regulation of finance (championed by the UK) that lead to the 2008 crisis. A break-up of the EU will lead to outcomes a thousand times worse for poor and working class people throughout its member nations, and consequently around the world. There will be a race to the bottom in terms of regulatory protection and labor rights. There will be massive declines in average standards of living. There will be a rollback of democracy, as strongmen and autocratic governments re-emerge in Europe. There will be a return to war between European states, and pogroms and ethnic cleansing as nationalist governments cast around for scapegoats for their own failure. If you think the pre-Brexit economic model had "serious faults" then believe me, you ain't seen nothing yet.
- crdoconnor 9y ago
  >What do any of those things have to do with the EU? Low wage immigration from Eastern Europe has put downward pressure on UK wages. Except in certain sectors wages haven't actually gone down, but they would have gone up a lot more without the competition, and relative to things like rent and educational costs they really have gone down. I think Remainers' persistent refusal to acknowledge this played right in to the hands of the pro-Brexit lot. >Brexit supporters are in favour of more global trade with countries like China, and lower environmental and labor standards. They hated the EU because it was precisely the opposite: A self-sustaining trading bloc made up of mostly successful, developed democracies, with (relatively) strong regulatory protection for workers and the rule of law. Brexit supporters were largely just angry with the status quo and were essentially casting a protest vote. It's all very well telling people that that was the "wrong" way of registering their protest but British democracy didn't really provide a lot of options in that respect.
richmarr 9y ago
You're overstating this argument and using some quite divisive rhetoric to boot. Nobody is "dumping" anything. Some types of workers, most notably existing immigrants do suffer... in the short term... particularly from migrants from outside the EU. https://fullfact.org/immigration/immigration-and-jobs-labour-market-effects-immigration/ https://fullfact.org/immigration/immigration-and-jobs-labour... I think this study is the key, to be honest "Research from University College London finds that an inflow of immigrants the size of 1% of the UK-born population leads to a 0.6% decline in the wages of the 5% lowest paid workers and to an increase in the wages of higher paid workers." (http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~uctpb21/Cpapers/CDP_03_08.pdf http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~uctpb21/Cpapers/CDP_03_08.pdf) The actual effect is not large, but the relative increase in distance between very low earners and middle/upper-middle earners is what offends... and the likes of Murdoch are only too happy to stir up that resentment in exchange for keeping their tax loopholes.
flexie 9y ago
The parent starts by saying ‘a significant part of the establishment’. He is not trying to describe all leavers, just the small part of them that are a significant part of the establishment. Also many of those same leave politicians want more trade with the former colonies, not less.

namelost 9y ago

Rich Brexiteers such as Liam Fox are happy to throw UK producers (especially food producers) under the bus in favour of cheap imports from abroad which have lower environmental standards. The parent is absolutely correct that the pro-Brexit politicans are using the working poor as their useful idiots.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
namelost 9y ago
Further to this, it is interesting to consider their motivations. Usually trade policy is an attempt to reconcile two conflicting goals: 1. To protect your own industries/producers 2. To grow your export markets abroad They are conflicting, because growing export markets (by striking trade agreements) often requires concessions that may damage sectors of a state's internal market. States attempt to strike the right balance of protectionism and free trade. The Brexiteers' trade policy seemingly values neither protectionism nor free trade. They do not care if they damage UK producers by flooding the UK market with cheap imports. And they do not care if they damage UK exporters by throwing away all the UK's trade agreements and reverting to WTO terms. Why? Because they do not care about trade or industry. For ideological reasons they wish to turn the UK into a low-tax, low-regulation state. Trade and industry are a mere inconvenience to them. The irony is that the UK was already becoming such a state while it was in the EU, and the loss of financial passporting is extremely damaging to the City and thus to the Brexiteers' project. They just haven't realised yet.

TheArcane 9y ago

> buying cheap crap made in China This would probably be true in 2001, but these days most Chinese stuff in my home is of high quality and extremely durable. Like my smartphone, my furniture, my hobby drone.

feikname 9y ago
I believe parent main point was about environment impact though.
baybal2 9y ago
Then it is buying cheap non-crap, which is even worse for domestic manufacturers

rorykoehler 9y ago

I wouldn't call it cynical because it is totally accurate. The UK financial sectors push back against any sane regulatory control suggested by the EU after the 2007 crash reflects this perfectly.

branchless 9y ago
Spot on, The City is a square mile for avoiding taxes, appropriating wealth and crushing workers.

cjalmeida 9y ago

>First, dumping cheap labor and goods into a country has a very real impact on poor and working class people Yup. It keeps inflation in check, and allows them to buy more stuff with their salary, including investing into improving their education and don't actually having to work on low paying jobs. Sometimes I wonder if David Ricardo was from Mars.

crdoconnor 9y ago
>Yup. It keeps inflation in check, and allows them to buy more stuff with their salary Cheap labor keeps inflation in check by keeping the salaries low. The upper middle and upper classes reap those benefits, not the people whose salaries were kept low. Repressing lower-middle class and working class salaries low to keep inflation in check is how you end up with Brexit, Trump, Le Pen, Golden Dawn, etc. This is a global phenomenon.
- cjalmeida 9y ago
  Most of those low paying jobs are taken by immigrants, who are happy to do them given the alternative. Natives, supposedly with better education and jobs, reap the benefits. It's a win-win situation. You don't need to be posh to benefit from migrants cheaply building your home, cleaning your bathroom, or taking care of the children and the elders.
  - Spooky23 9y ago
    It's a win win for the shrinking middle-class and expanding rich class. Not so good for the proles. In America, the options for these folks are basically disability, jail (for men) or being a state supported baby machine. We also offer opiates to help.
    - cjalmeida 9y ago
      Visit any 3rd world country to know what being a real prole means. I have a hard time being sympathetic to folks that were born in a stable an generally safe country, with access to decent (if not prime) education. And all they care during their school years is girls and pot/meth. Than they blame their unemployment on piss poor migrants that can't even speak the language, or asians that studied their asses off with the little they could make. There are good people becoming unemployed due to tech advances. The solution is having them learn new trades - not expelling migrants so they can clean bathrooms for $15/h

stupidcar 9y ago

What do any of those things have to do with the EU? Brexit supporters are in favour of more global trade with countries like China, and lower environmental and labor standards. They hated the EU because it was precisely the opposite: A self-sustaining trading bloc made up of mostly successful, developed democracies, with (relatively) strong regulatory protection for workers and the rule of law. Corporate interests know that, in a struggle, size is what matters. Multi-national corporations can effectively bully the governments of individual countries far more easily than they can a supranational collection of governments who resist being played off against each other. Faced with a lack of success forcing the EU to deregulate, these interests have instead switched to trying to undermine the institution itself, by funding populist campaigns that blame economic problems on the EU, even though it was under-regulation of finance (championed by the UK) that lead to the 2008 crisis. A break-up of the EU will lead to outcomes a thousand times worse for poor and working class people throughout its member nations, and consequently around the world. There will be a race to the bottom in terms of regulatory protection and labor rights. There will be massive declines in average standards of living. There will be a rollback of democracy, as strongmen and autocratic governments re-emerge in Europe. There will be a return to war between European states, and pogroms and ethnic cleansing as nationalist governments cast around for scapegoats for their own failure. If you think the pre-Brexit economic model had "serious faults" then believe me, you ain't seen nothing yet.

crdoconnor 9y ago
>What do any of those things have to do with the EU? Low wage immigration from Eastern Europe has put downward pressure on UK wages. Except in certain sectors wages haven't actually gone down, but they would have gone up a lot more without the competition, and relative to things like rent and educational costs they really have gone down. I think Remainers' persistent refusal to acknowledge this played right in to the hands of the pro-Brexit lot. >Brexit supporters are in favour of more global trade with countries like China, and lower environmental and labor standards. They hated the EU because it was precisely the opposite: A self-sustaining trading bloc made up of mostly successful, developed democracies, with (relatively) strong regulatory protection for workers and the rule of law. Brexit supporters were largely just angry with the status quo and were essentially casting a protest vote. It's all very well telling people that that was the "wrong" way of registering their protest but British democracy didn't really provide a lot of options in that respect.

richmarr 9y ago

You're overstating this argument and using some quite divisive rhetoric to boot. Nobody is "dumping" anything. Some types of workers, most notably existing immigrants do suffer... in the short term... particularly from migrants from outside the EU. https://fullfact.org/immigration/immigration-and-jobs-labour-market-effects-immigration/ https://fullfact.org/immigration/immigration-and-jobs-labour... I think this study is the key, to be honest "Research from University College London finds that an inflow of immigrants the size of 1% of the UK-born population leads to a 0.6% decline in the wages of the 5% lowest paid workers and to an increase in the wages of higher paid workers." (http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~uctpb21/Cpapers/CDP_03_08.pdf http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~uctpb21/Cpapers/CDP_03_08.pdf) The actual effect is not large, but the relative increase in distance between very low earners and middle/upper-middle earners is what offends... and the likes of Murdoch are only too happy to stir up that resentment in exchange for keeping their tax loopholes.

flexie 9y ago

The parent starts by saying ‘a significant part of the establishment’. He is not trying to describe all leavers, just the small part of them that are a significant part of the establishment. Also many of those same leave politicians want more trade with the former colonies, not less.