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Consider this with BuzzFeed’s reports on the recent string of suspicious Russia-connected deaths in the U.K. (police seeming to close cases either out of fear,

by dtf 9y ago

Consider this with BuzzFeed’s reports on the recent string of suspicious Russia-connected deaths in the U.K. (police seeming to close cases either out of fear, lack of resource or advice from the security services) and the future is looking worrying.

anon1385 9y ago
For those who have not read it: https://www.buzzfeed.com/heidiblake/from-russia-with-blood-14-suspected-hits-on-british-soil https://www.buzzfeed.com/heidiblake/from-russia-with-blood-1...
makomk 9y ago
What caused me to question the general honesty of those articles was the third: https://www.buzzfeed.com/janebradley/scientist-who-helped-connect-litvinenkos-murder-to-the https://www.buzzfeed.com/janebradley/scientist-who-helped-co... They lead with the idea that this obviously couldn't be suicide - playing up the role he played in the Litvinenko murder investigation, the supposed suspicions of the US intelligence services, and the fact that some friends and family members shared those suspicions. It took until the 28th paragraph for them to mention that he had been showing signs of depression for a while, and the 33rd to clarify that his wife had apparently caught him trying to kill himself the week before his death. They then explain that doesn't matter because a former Scotland Yard counter-terror officer told them this could just have been the result of secret mind control chemicals. (Seriously.) Their explanation of his role in the Litvinenko investigation is also just plain wrong from what I can tell. He and another scientist re-calculated polonium-210 intake and lethal dose in 2010 based on the discovery that Litvinenko has been exposed twice, rather than once[1] (which made little difference to the results). He doesn't seem to have had anything to do with the original 2006 investigation, which was carried out by a number of other scientists[2]. All of the things Buzzfeed attribute to his work - the discovery of a lethal amount of polonium, the HPA's public statement, suspicion falling on Russia, and Scotland Yard finding a radioactive trail all over London - in fact appear to predate his involvement by years. It's been rather disappointing seeing them gain further credibility and attention these past few days. [1] http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160613093928/https://www.litvinenkoinquiry.org/files/2015/04/INQ007647wb.pdf http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160613093928/htt... [2] http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160613091729/https://www.litvinenkoinquiry.org/files/2015/04/INQ007633wb.pdf http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160613091729/htt...
- zuzun 9y ago
  So I read the article and I don't think it's as bad as you make it. The part that explains his involvement in the investigation is actually backed by a now inaccessible source. It would be crucial to know what the authors linked there before we judge the credibility. The rest is a matter of opinion. They obviously have no definitive answer, so it's all speculation. Their point is that his personality changed after these trips. Maybe I would be more inclined to agree with you if I hadn't seen a Channel 4 documentary on Litvinenko [1] where one of the Scotland Yard detectives recounts lots of strange things happening on their separate trip to Moscow: parts of their group fell ill, they thought they were being followed, and they were driven aimlessly around before they could see one of the suspects. [1] http://www.channel4.com/programmes/hunting-the-kgb-killers http://www.channel4.com/programmes/hunting-the-kgb-killers
  - makomk 9y ago
    It's actually pretty easy to figure out what document was linked to explain his involvement in the investigation. If you look at the URL of the now-inaccessible document it ends with INQ007647. That's the identifier of the statement to the Litvinenko inquiry describing the late 2010 reassessment of how much radiation Litvinenko was exposed to based on the new discovery that he'd been exposed twice, which it specifically mentions Dr. Puncher was involved in. I linked to the copy of that document on the inquiry website in my original comment. It wasn't just a case of Buzzfeed linking to the wrong document either; I looked at the earlier documents which it was a follow-up to and the earlier work was all done by other scientists.
    - zuzun 9y ago
      Thanks for your explanation! Since HN cut of your URLs, the similarity between the filenames didn't jump to my eye. You're right, 2007 doesn't mention Puncher, it only mentions his close colleague Birchall. Both were publishing articles together around the time [1-4], so I find it hard to believe that he wouldn't work on such a high-profile case that was being solved by their computer software [2]. Since Buzzfeed authors talked to Birchall and Puncher’s family, I trust their accounts of his involvement. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16410294 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16410294 [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17132655 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17132655 [3] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18003710 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18003710 [4] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18806256 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18806256

by dtf 9y ago

anon1385 9y ago

For those who have not read it: https://www.buzzfeed.com/heidiblake/from-russia-with-blood-14-suspected-hits-on-british-soil https://www.buzzfeed.com/heidiblake/from-russia-with-blood-1...

makomk 9y ago

What caused me to question the general honesty of those articles was the third: https://www.buzzfeed.com/janebradley/scientist-who-helped-connect-litvinenkos-murder-to-the https://www.buzzfeed.com/janebradley/scientist-who-helped-co... They lead with the idea that this obviously couldn't be suicide - playing up the role he played in the Litvinenko murder investigation, the supposed suspicions of the US intelligence services, and the fact that some friends and family members shared those suspicions. It took until the 28th paragraph for them to mention that he had been showing signs of depression for a while, and the 33rd to clarify that his wife had apparently caught him trying to kill himself the week before his death. They then explain that doesn't matter because a former Scotland Yard counter-terror officer told them this could just have been the result of secret mind control chemicals. (Seriously.) Their explanation of his role in the Litvinenko investigation is also just plain wrong from what I can tell. He and another scientist re-calculated polonium-210 intake and lethal dose in 2010 based on the discovery that Litvinenko has been exposed twice, rather than once[1] (which made little difference to the results). He doesn't seem to have had anything to do with the original 2006 investigation, which was carried out by a number of other scientists[2]. All of the things Buzzfeed attribute to his work - the discovery of a lethal amount of polonium, the HPA's public statement, suspicion falling on Russia, and Scotland Yard finding a radioactive trail all over London - in fact appear to predate his involvement by years. It's been rather disappointing seeing them gain further credibility and attention these past few days. [1] http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160613093928/https://www.litvinenkoinquiry.org/files/2015/04/INQ007647wb.pdf http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160613093928/htt... [2] http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160613091729/https://www.litvinenkoinquiry.org/files/2015/04/INQ007633wb.pdf http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160613091729/htt...

zuzun 9y ago
So I read the article and I don't think it's as bad as you make it. The part that explains his involvement in the investigation is actually backed by a now inaccessible source. It would be crucial to know what the authors linked there before we judge the credibility. The rest is a matter of opinion. They obviously have no definitive answer, so it's all speculation. Their point is that his personality changed after these trips. Maybe I would be more inclined to agree with you if I hadn't seen a Channel 4 documentary on Litvinenko [1] where one of the Scotland Yard detectives recounts lots of strange things happening on their separate trip to Moscow: parts of their group fell ill, they thought they were being followed, and they were driven aimlessly around before they could see one of the suspects. [1] http://www.channel4.com/programmes/hunting-the-kgb-killers http://www.channel4.com/programmes/hunting-the-kgb-killers
- makomk 9y ago
  It's actually pretty easy to figure out what document was linked to explain his involvement in the investigation. If you look at the URL of the now-inaccessible document it ends with INQ007647. That's the identifier of the statement to the Litvinenko inquiry describing the late 2010 reassessment of how much radiation Litvinenko was exposed to based on the new discovery that he'd been exposed twice, which it specifically mentions Dr. Puncher was involved in. I linked to the copy of that document on the inquiry website in my original comment. It wasn't just a case of Buzzfeed linking to the wrong document either; I looked at the earlier documents which it was a follow-up to and the earlier work was all done by other scientists.
  - zuzun 9y ago
    Thanks for your explanation! Since HN cut of your URLs, the similarity between the filenames didn't jump to my eye. You're right, 2007 doesn't mention Puncher, it only mentions his close colleague Birchall. Both were publishing articles together around the time [1-4], so I find it hard to believe that he wouldn't work on such a high-profile case that was being solved by their computer software [2]. Since Buzzfeed authors talked to Birchall and Puncher’s family, I trust their accounts of his involvement. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16410294 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16410294 [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17132655 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17132655 [3] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18003710 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18003710 [4] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18806256 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18806256