17 ms·

Can any composer equal Bach?

198 points by aphextron 9y ago

FractalLP 9y ago
Def my favorite composer.
polotics 9y ago
Damon Albarn
jstewartmobile 9y ago
Bach is very good, but he's no Toshiki Kadomatsu.
TipVFL 9y ago
Damn, I was hoping this would be about a tool that would let me equal Bach.
- zwieback 9y ago
  Here you go: https://static.googleusercontent.com/media/research.google.com/en//pubs/archive/45576.pdf https://static.googleusercontent.com/media/research.google.c...
ky738 9y ago
The Rock
the_cat_kittles 9y ago
usually when this question is asked, its asked in such a way that is kind of tautological. in other words, it presupposes that the great things that bach developed and invented are the most important things, then says, "hey look, heres the guy who did these things the best!" i say this as someone who grew up worshipping bach. its not that he isnt every bit as good as everyone says he is. its just that he does not have a monopoly on "composition" or "music", and you would be well served to remember that!
rb808 9y ago
DJ Khalid
stochastic_monk 9y ago
A careful analysis of Beethoven's later works shows him to be a worthy contender. In particular, the Große Fugue [0] and the Op. 106 Hammerklavier sonata [1] (ironically so nicknamed, because at Op. 101, Beethoven directed that all sonatas from that time on be named Große Sonate für das Hammerklavier, and the nickname only stuck to this) show a profoundly advanced sense of counterpoint and structure. In addition to applying all of the classical transformations to motifs (including augmentation, diminution, cancrizans, canons and sequences), he even performs note for note reversals in time. (A temporal cancrizan, if you will.) [Edit: it would be a crime to fail to mention the late string quartets, which show prescience of modernism and are considered to be the pinnacle of chamber music. Many of you will at least be familiar with the Op. 131 c# minor quartet, which Wagner called the "saddest music ever penned" and whose 6th movement was used in the Band of Brothers episode "Why We Fight".] Similarly, Brahms' masterful applications of form and counterpoint put most other composers to shame. Rather than be as enormously prolific as Bach, the quality of his output is more consistently excellent. (No doubt partially due to his penchant for burning the manuscripts which he felt were subpar.) I think it's a little unfair to put Bach on this pedestal. There's plenty of music by any composer mentioned to relax to or feel stimulated by. Additionally, Bach's musical temperaments are somewhat limited by his media and styles. He is the master of his craft, but his craft has limited scope. Yes, Bach has his own, unique, immovable place. But Beethoven, Brahms, and many other composers have immutable, unchallenged championships in their own arenas. [P.S. Please mark this with a [2014] tag to denote when it was published.] [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gro%C3%9Fe_Fuge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gro%C3%9Fe_Fuge [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_Sonata_No._29_(Beethoven) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_Sonata_No._29_(Beethoven...
- soperj 9y ago
  How do you feel about Rachmaninoff?
  - Synaesthesia 9y ago
    He’s great, his concerti for piano are remarkable, but I don’t think his output approaches that of Beethoven or Bach for volume, or sustained quality. Very different style too, highly romantic, lyrical. I didn’t always care for it but I must say concerti 2&3 for piano are masterpieces.
blt 9y ago
I care about music a lot, but I don't really listen to classical music. I don't actively dislike it, but there are other music genres I like more. Even as a total uneducated outsider, I can tell there is something special about Bach. Especially the pieces for a small number of instruments like the harpsichord. It captures something deep about the human spirit.
bobthechef 9y ago
"It’s hard to think of a more refined brain than Albert Einstein’s," What an absolutely silly remark. There were things Einstein was good at, and things he was not. This silly popular image of Einstein as the genius among geniuses is just that: silly and popular. And this appeal to his supposed authority (more like piggybacking off his popular reputation) is just tawdry. "“writing about music is like dancing about architecture”." Nothing but obscurantism. If Bach is the quintessential or the best classical composer, then in principle it is possible to explain exactly why, even if you personally may be unable to. "Living from 1685 to 1750, he had no choice but to write music to the glory of God" Yes, because, as the sophisticated writers at the BBC insinuate, a composer of Bach's greatness could only have written "to the glory of God" if forced to do so in some way. "Such were the times" they think to themselves. Had he the choice, had he been freed from the backwardness of his culture, surely he would have been outwardly as sophisticated as us! "Bach’s music was made through faith, but it transcends faith. He humanises the Lutheran theology of his time and makes it approachable. [...] This earthy element to Bach’s epic spirituality is “a wonderful paradox" A very odd thing to say, and somewhat nonsensical. Transcends faith? And besides, didn't God become Man in the figure of Jesus? Isn't that at the very heart of Christianity? If there is paradox, then it is the paradox of the Incarnation. He may have given a new voice to this mystery, but he did not invent the mystery. "“So there’s Bach, drenched in grief, sleeping with groupies in the organ loft; a duelling, fighting, hard-drinking rock star with a work ethic that makes Obama look like a bum" ??? If there's anyone hitting the sauce, it's this James Rhodes guy. James, if you're playing is as bad as your vacuous blather, I am gravely afraid for my ears.
- trendia 9y ago
  > This silly popular image of Einstein as the genius among geniuses is just that: silly and popular. Uh, Einstein published four papers that revolutionized four areas of physics in one year: * The photoelectric effect * Brownian Motion * Special Relativity * Mass-Energy Equivalence Sure, he didn't do it alone. But even publishing one of those papers as part of a group would be an extraordinary feat for a physicist of the time, and he did it again and again. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annus_Mirabilis_papers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annus_Mirabilis_papers
DubiousPusher 9y ago
I first should admit that I'm a 100% self taught appreciator of classical music. I don't have any formal musical education. Nor any formal history of music education. I'm the only person of my family and friends that seeks out and listens to classical music. So, my knowledge is very uneven and I'm a total pedestrian in this realm. Over the years, I've found music by references from fiction, films and criticism. I've run down many a list of "great composers". Usually, some little reference throws me down a rabbit hole of all kind of new compositions I like but every time I get to Bach, I stop short. I just can't stand the music. I've spent hours picking different recordings of the Brandenburg's, the Toccatas and Fantasias to no avail. I understand the music is important historically and that it has a technical beauty but it just doesn't move me in any way. Maybe some day it will click but until then I'm just going to have to take the critic's word for it.
- IAmGraydon 9y ago
  Who do you consider to be a great composer?
- zwieback 9y ago
  You're not the only one who feels like that and you can safely ignore the critics. There's no doubt Bach was a great composer but even asking the question whether there's a "greatest" is pretty dumb. I happen to love some of Bach's works but know many people who find his works too mathematical or cold.
  - planxty 9y ago
    I would wager they haven't listened to good performances or haven't spent enough time with Bach's music. There's nothing cold about BWV199. Find Gardiner's rendition featuring Magdalena Kozena, it'll knock your socks off.
    - zwieback 9y ago
      Wow, her voice is fantastic. Listening to her Rueckert Lieder now, thanks for the tip!!
adamsea 9y ago
Prince!
IAmGraydon 9y ago
Douglas Adams once said "Beethoven tells you what it's like to be Beethoven and Mozart tells you what it's like to be human. Bach tells you what it's like to be the universe." As a musician, I understand this. It's our goal as musicians to channel and convey emotion. Bach channels something much greater than himself or myself or ourselves. It's really incredible. His music sounds vast.
- planxty 9y ago
  The article describes an agnostic man being drawn to faith by Bach's music. I am no Christian, but this is my own experience as well. Douglas Adams is correct.
- sotojuan 9y ago
  I'm a Mozart (and Haydn) fan and this quote is still correct. I prefer the humanist approach to music of the late 1700s over Bach's. They're all great though :-)
- K3oT6n 9y ago
  I can feel extreme sublime elevation from form few pieces of music I'm completely familiar with. One is Bach's Goldberg Variations (Glenn Could's first faster recording is my favorite) and another is "He Loved Him Madly" from Miles Davis (there are few others). In all cases it fist happens after I listen nothing but the same piece over and over again maybe 10-15 times in a period of week. It's amazing feeling. Something just clicks. But the experience is different from different pieces of music. Miles Davis is expressing something based on humanity. Bach is, like you said, something else that transcends everything.
- stagbeetle 9y ago
  And Vivaldi reminds you what it's like to be a child again.
- _emacsomancer_ 9y ago
  Adams also wrote: "The familiarity of the Brandenburgs should not blind us to their magnitude. I’m convinced that Bach is the greater genius who ever walked among us, and the Brandenburgs are what he wrote when he was happy."
siglesias 9y ago
If anyone is interested in Bach's keyboard literature, it's hard to top the interpretations of Glenn Gould, a fascinating musician in his own right. Here, for example, is a seminal performance of the D minor concerto, conducted by Leonard Bernstein: https://youtu.be/9ZX_XCYokQo?t=5m9s https://youtu.be/9ZX_XCYokQo?t=5m9s
- poulsbohemian 9y ago
  I like Gould, but there's something I like more about Simone Dinnerstein's rendition of the Goldberg Variations. It's somehow warmer sounding to me over the precision of Gould.
- madhadron 9y ago
  But note that it may not be to your taste if you do try them. I specialized in early music, and I hate Gould's playing. There are places in the two part inventions where it feels to me like he chose his tempo to see how much he could screw up the piece.
planxty 9y ago
No, no composer can equal Bach. Done. Upvote to the top please. :P
creatornator 9y ago
No one equals Bach, but some come close enough to make the answer unclear. My favorite trivia about Boston's Symphony Hall is that there are dozens of empty plaques along the balconies, where composer's names were going to be engraved when the hall was built. The only name the trustees could agree on was Beethoven. Not Bach, Mozart, Haydn, etc., only Beethoven, and his name is front and center, above the stage. [0] [0]: https://www.bso.org/brands/symphony-hall/about-us/historyarchives/the-history-of-symphony-hall.aspx https://www.bso.org/brands/symphony-hall/about-us/historyarc...
british_india 9y ago
Yes, Mozart!
_emacsomancer_ 9y ago
There are a number of great but not as well known earlier composers. William Lawes comes to mind.
aimeric 9y ago
Since we're on this topic: Is Western classical music (typified by Bach) really the zenith in our human understanding of the 'universal' language of music? Certainly, the complex and subtle tunes and harmonies of classical, in particular, give us goosebumps, provoke intense emotional responses. Do the same phenomena occur in other musical cultures? Traditional Japanese, Chinese, Javanese, Indian - their musical expression is markedly different. Try out some ancient Greek scales, from the dawn of our Western civilization: unfamiliar, yet still 'tingly'. So are there equivalents to Bach that we're just not 'in tune' with? Alternative musical structures that are just as valid, yet wildly unfamiliar? Akira - Kaneda's Theme: https://youtu.be/hpDvtIt6Lsc https://youtu.be/hpDvtIt6Lsc Indonesian Gamelan orchestra: https://youtu.be/sZZTfu4jWcI https://youtu.be/sZZTfu4jWcI What Ancient Greek Music Sounded Like: https://soundcloud.com/archaeologymag/what-ancient-greek-music https://soundcloud.com/archaeologymag/what-ancient-greek-mus... Ancient Krell Music (Forbidden Planet, 1956): https://youtu.be/oNKhju6Pryg https://youtu.be/oNKhju6Pryg
- niftilyeerily 9y ago
  Indian Classical Music is perhaps the most versatile of all kinds of music I have come across. A traditional western scale has 12 notes, in the Indian system (carnatic) there are four further divisions, making it a 48 note octave. Instead of scales, there are raags and they signify different moods. Indian Flute Meditation Music: https://youtu.be/mr8GBzTsWqM https://youtu.be/mr8GBzTsWqM
  - tacomonstrous 9y ago
    >48 note octave That's somewhat of an exaggeration. There are embellishments of notes that border half and quarter-notes, but they are usually centered around a point on the 12 note octave. Also, there is a price to be paid for the melodic complexity: there is essentially no place for harmony in the Indian tradition. On the other hand, there is a lot more room for improvisation, making it more akin to Jazz than to any Western classical form.
  - davesque 9y ago
    Indian classical is for sure cool and does a lot of interesting stuff rhythmically speaking. Also lots of interesting instruments and corresponding techniques for playing them. But I don't think it's necessarily any more versatile than other musical traditions. If Western classical is less interesting rhythmically, it's more interesting harmonically. It also developed an incredible system of notation. Every kind of music has its thing that makes it stand out I guess.
exolymph 9y ago
today in "completely subjective judgments"
whack 9y ago
Ironically enough, I think the author did a fantastic job of demonstrating why "writing about music" is a fool's game. I love Bach as well, but what makes him the "ultimate", beyond reach of others like Mozart? The article paints numerous glowing tributes by Bach's fans, presents the inspiration of his life, but fails utterly in answering the ultimate question. I've always believed that art is qualitatively different from pop entertainment. The latter is purely subjective, and aims to pleasure us. Art, in contrast, is defined by its ability to inspire its audience. Its ability to elevate the way we think, act, and look upon the world. Which is more tasty, chocolate or oranges? That's an impossible question to answer in any objective manner. But which is more nutritious? Which is better for our health? That is something which can be quantified and discussed much more objectively. I look forward to the day we can have similar discussions about art.
- Cyph0n 9y ago
  > I've always believed that art is qualitatively different from pop entertainment. The latter is purely subjective, and aims to pleasure us. Art, in contrast, is defined by its ability to inspire its audience. So art, unlike pop entertainment, is not purely subjective? And can pop entertainment not "inspire its audience" or "elevate the way we think"? > Which is more tasty, chocolate or oranges? That's an impossible question to answer in any objective manner. But which is more nutritious? Which is better for our health? That is something which can be quantified and discussed much more objectively. If your goal was to provide an analogy for art vs. pop entertainment, I don't think it worked. > I look forward to the day we can have similar discussions about art. That might happen, but only when art, like nutritional value, can be objectively evaluated and have its "beauty" (or whatever the term is) concretely quantified.
- sotojuan 9y ago
  > The latter is purely subjective, and aims to pleasure us. A lot of composers of the Classical era such as Haydn would gladly say their music is made for the pleasure of all or as many people as possible ("I write my music in order that the weary and worn or the men burdened with affairs might enjoy a few minutes of solace and refreshment."). In fact, I would argue the whole point of the Classical style of the late 1700s was to move away from (in their words) "elitist" and complicated music of Bach and the opera seria, Mozart's operas being much easier to relate to as an average Joe than Monteverdi's. Yet all their works are inspiring and elevating - I think both goals can be achieved.
resource0x 9y ago
It's hard to compare for equality, but in terms of musical talent, overall - Keith Jarrett. For some context: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3FEBz5fby8&t=2464s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3FEBz5fby8&t=2464s
jancsika 9y ago
> It’s inconceivable that another composer could take Bach’s place in that slot. Even Mozart or Beethoven wouldn’t cut it. I'd pick Mozart. When listeners hear Bach enumerate what seems like every significant variation technique for a given theme, they can quickly attribute mastery upon hearing that one piece. But someone with Bach's abilities could just as easily have only imagined all those variations as potential music, then chosen only a few excerpts for a lighter, shorter setting. Now, imagine this alternative-timeline Bach wrote in a late 18th century operatic form. For each aria he a) picks a fitting style (or mashes up fitting/effective styles), b) imagines the set of possible music based on the character of the text, and c) chooses what he thinks is the most fitting from all those possibilities. (Also, throw in a bunch of hidden musical jokes along the way.) That alternative-timeline Bach would be superior to the real Bach. Because he came after the real Bach his output includes real Bach's mastery of counterpoint (Jupiter Symphony, Intro to Requiem). Also alternative-timeline Bach can imitate real Bach's style at will (two-part invention at the end of Rondo in A minor). The only difficulty is that the listener has to listen to a lot of alternative-timeline Bach before they start to get a sense of the scope of his mastery. Well, good thing the slot we're trying to fill gives an audience plenty of time to hear a variety of music from this composer's output. Bach++ ftw.
- asaph 9y ago
  > It’s inconceivable that another composer could take Bach’s place... I'd like to put my vote in for Lennon-McCartney. I know we're talking about classical music here and I'm not trolling. I just think they're the toppermost of the poppermost.
  - jancsika 9y ago
    There's definitely a lot of innovation with them, and not just in songwriting. For example, I can't figure why Helter Skelter has somehow managed to sound like it was recorded yesterday for five decades now. How many other recordings from 1968 sound like that? But I can imagine a world where an alternate Lennon-McCartney arranged all their own string parts, dominated the symphonic world, wrote wildly popular church service music, performed guitar showcase music with prominent (probably improvised) cadenzas, and had multiple hits running on Broadway. I think you could pick any single genre, burn everything else Mozart wrote, and he'd still be regarded as one of the greatest composers of his time. (That doesn't work for Beethoven because of the opera genre.) Rich people at parties are still playing the throw-away background music he probably wrote for a rich person's party. (Btw-- if you listen to the rest of his background music you won't be disappointed.)
wizardforhire 9y ago
The Chaconne [1] is the most moving piece of music I've ever heard. (hard stop) The story behind it makes it even more so. When you grok it at full volume you'll understand what Douglas Adams was talking about. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaconne https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaconne
- madhadron 9y ago
  Whenever someone in my life has died, I have picked up my violin and played the Chaconne.
- ibz 9y ago
  Helene Grimaud's interpretation [1] of Busoni's transcription for piano is also pretty amazing. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sw9DlMNnpPM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sw9DlMNnpPM
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    That gives me gooseflesh. Thank you for this.
- darkerside 9y ago
  Listened for the first time, thanks to your comment. Beautiful.
- TheOtherHobbes 9y ago
  If he’d never written anything else, the Chaconne alone would be enough to make him one of the greats.
Uhhrrr 9y ago
Good candidate for Betteridge's Law.
bane 9y ago
Now there is music from which a man can learn something. - W. A. Mozart (on hearing Bach motets in Leipzig) In the multiverse I'm supremely happy that I've ended up in one where Bach both existed and created tremendous amounts of music. You can spend a lifetime exploring his oeuvre and find entire corners of delight. I'm reminded of this thread from 2014: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7720708 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7720708 Despite appearances to the contrary, I find that one of the powerful things about Bach's work is how it is almost a kind of "abstract" auditory form that just happens to be performed on instruments. What I mean is that many of his pieces can be performed equally well on just about any combination of instruments or voice and still be beautiful. It's not always true, but there's a strange density of his music that seems like this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zkPaGnKb5M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zkPaGnKb5M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BvwM07BYvg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BvwM07BYvg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKRj-T4l-e8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKRj-T4l-e8 Some favorites: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLj_gMBqHX8&t=353s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLj_gMBqHX8&t=353s (BWV 1048 III Allegro) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWlfmepsUuQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWlfmepsUuQ (BWV 1049) - the reason why the Recorder has value as an instrument https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tc4kWmxpZGs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tc4kWmxpZGs (BWV 1060) - Every note the Oboe plays is made out of magic and delight here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CexJQ8VWJfY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CexJQ8VWJfY (BWV 1051) - Even Violas can be beautiful, and this is one of the most incredible pieces of music in all of music. I think the next composer to have captured my attention has been Steve Reich. And for entirely different reasons. I can take or leave his earliest highly experimental works. But when he came into full form later on he created majesty. Some of this music feel like being inside the engines of creation. You'll find his fingerprints all over modern music. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Np9yApXD94 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Np9yApXD94 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMsYuFrKUQ8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMsYuFrKUQ8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLZelvSvh3A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLZelvSvh3A
ScipioAfricanus 9y ago
Do yourself a favor and find The Canadian Brass' recording of Bach's glorious Art of Fugue. My God it's beautiful.
8bitsrule 9y ago
Bach is the 'ultimate composer' in the same sense that Pleistocene Ogg is the ultimate tool-maker, Robert Goddard the ultimate rocket-maker. Bach did many wondrous things, added a lot to the vocabulary, staked a viable claim on a couple of mother lodes. But this sort of argument (though eternally engaged in) is futile. While classical is a favorite of many (including me), music has moved far, far onward.
- archagon 9y ago
  Onward, but not forward. Counterpoint is still depressingly underused in modern music (save for the occasional duet), and it can say so much with so little material. (Heck, the majority modern music barely even changes chords, let let alone key or anything beyond.) These tools are not antiquated; they are not buried in the sediment. They are still perfectly useful and there for our taking, if only we would dust them off.
  - qiqitori 9y ago
    If by counterpoint you mean having melody on a different track (rather than just "beat" or added harmony) I'd say it's used way more than just in duets/canons. Most jazz (or accompaniment in general) would apply for example. https://youtu.be/GhCXAiNz9Jo?t=1m22s https://youtu.be/GhCXAiNz9Jo?t=1m22s Does this apply? (Franz Ferdinand - Take Me Out) I think counterpoint is used more than people think. Saying that we haven't moved "forward" from Bach is disingenuous, when Bach didn't even have straight 7th chords.
    - archagon 9y ago
      I'd say counterpoint requires the melodies to be on more-or-less equal footing, which doesn't really happen in this clip. (I'm sure it happens way more often in jazz, but I'm not an avid listener.) In any case, you definitely won't be hearing the kinds of crazy thematic transformations that Bach uses in his fugues. I didn't mean to imply that our music is unequivocally less advanced than Bach's — we've certainly acquired musical tools over the years that Bach would never have dreamed of! — but I also don't believe that his music should be viewed as a mere archeological layer in music history. It's still alive, it still resonates with modern audiences, and it still uses techniques that are rarely seen even today. We can still profit tremendously from it.
andbberger 9y ago
No.
DEbCB 9y ago
HN types think they're the smartest of the smart, yet judging from these comments and from other music-related posts I've seen here, most of you listen to popular music (including rock and rap) near exclusively. The comments seriously offering up pop stars as equals of Bach are just sad. Go on a pop diet. Cut back on it the way you might sugar or processed foods. Try to spend a year listening to classical music only. These resources will help you get started: https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/music https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/music https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLh9mgdi4rNezhx8YiGIV8I22ICSuzslja https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLh9mgdi4rNezhx8YiGIV8...
- maxerickson 9y ago
  I'm curious, are you hating on Beethoven and Mozart or did you just not read the comments that you presume to summarize?
  - DEbCB 9y ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16556892 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16556892 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16556192 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16556192 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16556033 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16556033
    - maxerickson 9y ago
      Most?
      - DEbCB 9y ago
        Yes, most. Most HNers have zero appreciation for serious music. This post announcing the death of David Bowie got 1484 upvotes and 301 comments (and the brave few who criticized it as off-topic got flagged): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10879262 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10879262 By contrast, the death of Boulez, love him or hate him, got two upvotes and zero comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10850214 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10850214 And the deaths of Claudio Abbado and Alexis Weissenberg, as additional examples, were ignored completely.
FraKtus 9y ago
The music of Bach is pretty unique to listen to while coding. The parallel structure of the music lines goes very well for a developer that must coordinate multiple tasks. I discovered bach by myself, and it was a pretty downing task. For curious minds, I would recommend the Goldberg variation, the cello suite and the violin concerto in E major (BWV 1042) as a starting point. At first most of his work may seem like a wall because so much is happening ... but with time you see the light. I remember at first the well-tempered keyboard was like that, but now it just flows so nicely. It's also a delight to listen to his music on original instruments such as the harpsichord. The music is so much clearer when played on a harpsichord. From the same epoch there are so many more to discover, one of my favorite is Domenico Scarlatti and his 555 sonatas to be listened on harpsicord played by Scott Ross!
cup-of-tea 9y ago
Today I am quitting reddit completely. With some of the time that I will save every day I will listen to a piece of Bach. I've read Gödel, Escher, Bach but never actually listened to Bach.
- forapurpose 9y ago
  Yes, as I was reading the article I thought, 'would my time be better spent listening to Bach?' Maybe I should be thinking that now ...
te0006 9y ago
If you can name a short (<5 mins) piece of music more beautiful, moving but also all-encompassing than Bach's "Air on a G-String" please do so; I can't. Listen to this interpretation before deciding: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cVSgEdT4KI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cVSgEdT4KI . Love, loss, despair, grievance, new hope, closure - it's all in there in this single, short, compassionate-but-not-sentimental, solemn-but-not-sad, perfectly balanced, ethereal piece.
- MrJagil 9y ago
  Been loving this lately https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eGybwV3U9W8 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eGybwV3U9W8
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    Thank you both those are beautiful.
    - mercer 9y ago
      Seriously! This is making my Saturday even better than I hoped it would be. I often forget properly listening, and instead end up having the same bunch of Spotify songs on repeat throughout the week. For all the suggestions in this thread I even dusted off my 'really good but uncomfortable' headphones :).
- coldtea 9y ago
  Try: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXMVkQ70I88 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXMVkQ70I88 (Bach) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-Xm7s9eGxU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-Xm7s9eGxU (Satie) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeAc0oh818s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeAc0oh818s (Beethoven)
- kenny87 9y ago
  a quite beautiful polyphonic piece: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSPaJLXfd-w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSPaJLXfd-w. but agreed that some of the most beautiful musical pieces mankind has ever created can be found in the Western classical music tradition. i don't care very much for comparing who is better than whom.
mad_tortoise 9y ago
Bach is my ninth great-grandfather for what its worth.
- moosebear 9y ago
  Are you in touch with any other Bach descendants? What do you all get up to?
  - mad_tortoise 9y ago
    I only know my siblings and cousins, that have the same grandmother. We hang out when we see each other and are in the same country. Weirdly, when I was a kid there was some sort of royalty money that someone messaged my father about.
te_chris 9y ago
A key thing to remember about the baroque period: it was almost all improvised - the original jazz, if you will. Tonal harmony was one of my favourite papers at music school, learning the rules of harmony to compose pieces like this from scratch. I wasn’t great at it, but it’s an amazing skill to observe in those that can do it. I once had a guitar masterclass and the tutor just stood up, jumped on the piano and improvised a fugue. Our minds were blown.
Moorcountry 9y ago
As a pianist from the age of 5 my ranking would be Mozart, Bach, than Beethoven. Mozart was a prodigy on a level unheard of. He wrote in so many different genres and such a short time period. Mostly though, is the pure beauty and lyricism of his music. The consistency of quality. The Requiem and the Magic Flute are required listening.
gshubert17 9y ago
Early in Neal Stephenson's Cryptonomicon, a math teacher and organist explains to Lawrence Waterhouse how organs worked. "When Lawrence understood, it was as if the math teacher had suddenly played the good part of Bach's Fantasia and Fugue in G Minor [BWV 542] on a pipe organ the size of the Spiral Nebula in Andromeda—the part where Uncle Johann dissects the architecture of the Universe in one merciless escending ever-mutating chord, as if his foot is thrusting through skidding layers of garbage until it finally strikes bedrock. In particular, the final steps of the organist's explanation were like a falcon's dive through layer after layer of pretense and illusion, thrilling or sickening or confusing depending on what you were. The heavens were riven open. Lawrence glimpsed choirs of angels ranking off into geometrical infinity."
nomonomus 9y ago
"Classical music has a lighter, clearer texture than Baroque music and is less complex. It is mainly homophonic — a clear melody above a subordinate chordal accompaniment. Counterpoint was by no means forgotten, especially later in the period."[0] People, just listen to some music, it doesn't matter, that the music is in decline since the baroque period - the music needs listeners. [edit] "Since there was a greater emphasis on a single melodic line, there was greater emphasis on notating that line for dynamics and phrasing. This contrasts with the Baroque era, when melodies were typically written with no dynamics, phrasing marks or ornaments, as it was assumed that the performer would improvise these elements on the spot. In the Classical era, it became more common for composers to indicate where they wanted performers to play ornaments such as trills or turns. The simplification of texture made such instrumental detail more important, and also made the use of characteristic rhythms, such as attention-getting opening fanfares, the funeral march rhythm, or the minuet genre, more important in establishing and unifying the tone of a single movement."[0] So, hello modern music, hello rap/r&b/soul and the likes. It's not worse, it's incomparable. Most people react on rhythm and catchy sounds, hearing no music at all, really. Comparing music is nuts as many here pointed out, and the question was different - can we have the next Bach? For me, the answer is "yes", for sure! Can we hear him/her? - perhaps no, label's target group is different. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_period_(music) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_period_(music)
truculation 9y ago
On the BBC's Desert Island Discs Douglas Adams chose pieces by Bach for no less than three of his eight permitted musical recordings. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0093qxj http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0093qxj
davesque 9y ago
Bach is one of my favorite composers if not my most favorite. However, as someone with a formal education in Western classical, it's always bothered me how heroic figures are worshipped in the tradition, often while ignoring other great artists. What I find much more interesting about Bach is the story of how he became famous as a composer, which as far as I know had a lot to do with the reputation and advocacy if his sons after his death. During his lifetime, he was known much more as a virtuosic organist.
ahdroit 9y ago
https://youtu.be/9ZX_XCYokQo https://youtu.be/9ZX_XCYokQo Glenn Gould and Leonard Bernstein: Bach's Keyboard Concerto No 1 in D minor (BWV 1052)
tabtab 9y ago
Bach's works can be strangely hypnotic in a way that's rare from other artists. It's not inherently intense or dramatic, but has a way of triggering intensity and drama through secondary means. I compare it to harmonic induction, like pushing somebody on a swing. Each push is gentle pressure, but the end result is high flying. Other artists require a catapult to take you up there, and it makes a big racket. Bach sneaks you up there without you noticing until a cloud sprays you with moisture.

198 points by aphextron 9y ago

FractalLP 9y ago

Def my favorite composer.

polotics 9y ago

Damon Albarn

jstewartmobile 9y ago

Bach is very good, but he's no Toshiki Kadomatsu.

TipVFL 9y ago

Damn, I was hoping this would be about a tool that would let me equal Bach.

zwieback 9y ago
Here you go: https://static.googleusercontent.com/media/research.google.com/en//pubs/archive/45576.pdf https://static.googleusercontent.com/media/research.google.c...

ky738 9y ago

The Rock

the_cat_kittles 9y ago

usually when this question is asked, its asked in such a way that is kind of tautological. in other words, it presupposes that the great things that bach developed and invented are the most important things, then says, "hey look, heres the guy who did these things the best!" i say this as someone who grew up worshipping bach. its not that he isnt every bit as good as everyone says he is. its just that he does not have a monopoly on "composition" or "music", and you would be well served to remember that!

rb808 9y ago

DJ Khalid

stochastic_monk 9y ago

A careful analysis of Beethoven's later works shows him to be a worthy contender. In particular, the Große Fugue [0] and the Op. 106 Hammerklavier sonata [1] (ironically so nicknamed, because at Op. 101, Beethoven directed that all sonatas from that time on be named Große Sonate für das Hammerklavier, and the nickname only stuck to this) show a profoundly advanced sense of counterpoint and structure. In addition to applying all of the classical transformations to motifs (including augmentation, diminution, cancrizans, canons and sequences), he even performs note for note reversals in time. (A temporal cancrizan, if you will.) [Edit: it would be a crime to fail to mention the late string quartets, which show prescience of modernism and are considered to be the pinnacle of chamber music. Many of you will at least be familiar with the Op. 131 c# minor quartet, which Wagner called the "saddest music ever penned" and whose 6th movement was used in the Band of Brothers episode "Why We Fight".] Similarly, Brahms' masterful applications of form and counterpoint put most other composers to shame. Rather than be as enormously prolific as Bach, the quality of his output is more consistently excellent. (No doubt partially due to his penchant for burning the manuscripts which he felt were subpar.) I think it's a little unfair to put Bach on this pedestal. There's plenty of music by any composer mentioned to relax to or feel stimulated by. Additionally, Bach's musical temperaments are somewhat limited by his media and styles. He is the master of his craft, but his craft has limited scope. Yes, Bach has his own, unique, immovable place. But Beethoven, Brahms, and many other composers have immutable, unchallenged championships in their own arenas. [P.S. Please mark this with a [2014] tag to denote when it was published.] [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gro%C3%9Fe_Fuge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gro%C3%9Fe_Fuge [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_Sonata_No._29_(Beethoven) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_Sonata_No._29_(Beethoven...

soperj 9y ago
How do you feel about Rachmaninoff?
- Synaesthesia 9y ago
  He’s great, his concerti for piano are remarkable, but I don’t think his output approaches that of Beethoven or Bach for volume, or sustained quality. Very different style too, highly romantic, lyrical. I didn’t always care for it but I must say concerti 2&3 for piano are masterpieces.

blt 9y ago

I care about music a lot, but I don't really listen to classical music. I don't actively dislike it, but there are other music genres I like more. Even as a total uneducated outsider, I can tell there is something special about Bach. Especially the pieces for a small number of instruments like the harpsichord. It captures something deep about the human spirit.

bobthechef 9y ago

"It’s hard to think of a more refined brain than Albert Einstein’s," What an absolutely silly remark. There were things Einstein was good at, and things he was not. This silly popular image of Einstein as the genius among geniuses is just that: silly and popular. And this appeal to his supposed authority (more like piggybacking off his popular reputation) is just tawdry. "“writing about music is like dancing about architecture”." Nothing but obscurantism. If Bach is the quintessential or the best classical composer, then in principle it is possible to explain exactly why, even if you personally may be unable to. "Living from 1685 to 1750, he had no choice but to write music to the glory of God" Yes, because, as the sophisticated writers at the BBC insinuate, a composer of Bach's greatness could only have written "to the glory of God" if forced to do so in some way. "Such were the times" they think to themselves. Had he the choice, had he been freed from the backwardness of his culture, surely he would have been outwardly as sophisticated as us! "Bach’s music was made through faith, but it transcends faith. He humanises the Lutheran theology of his time and makes it approachable. [...] This earthy element to Bach’s epic spirituality is “a wonderful paradox" A very odd thing to say, and somewhat nonsensical. Transcends faith? And besides, didn't God become Man in the figure of Jesus? Isn't that at the very heart of Christianity? If there is paradox, then it is the paradox of the Incarnation. He may have given a new voice to this mystery, but he did not invent the mystery. "“So there’s Bach, drenched in grief, sleeping with groupies in the organ loft; a duelling, fighting, hard-drinking rock star with a work ethic that makes Obama look like a bum" ??? If there's anyone hitting the sauce, it's this James Rhodes guy. James, if you're playing is as bad as your vacuous blather, I am gravely afraid for my ears.

trendia 9y ago
> This silly popular image of Einstein as the genius among geniuses is just that: silly and popular. Uh, Einstein published four papers that revolutionized four areas of physics in one year: * The photoelectric effect * Brownian Motion * Special Relativity * Mass-Energy Equivalence Sure, he didn't do it alone. But even publishing one of those papers as part of a group would be an extraordinary feat for a physicist of the time, and he did it again and again. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annus_Mirabilis_papers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annus_Mirabilis_papers

DubiousPusher 9y ago

I first should admit that I'm a 100% self taught appreciator of classical music. I don't have any formal musical education. Nor any formal history of music education. I'm the only person of my family and friends that seeks out and listens to classical music. So, my knowledge is very uneven and I'm a total pedestrian in this realm. Over the years, I've found music by references from fiction, films and criticism. I've run down many a list of "great composers". Usually, some little reference throws me down a rabbit hole of all kind of new compositions I like but every time I get to Bach, I stop short. I just can't stand the music. I've spent hours picking different recordings of the Brandenburg's, the Toccatas and Fantasias to no avail. I understand the music is important historically and that it has a technical beauty but it just doesn't move me in any way. Maybe some day it will click but until then I'm just going to have to take the critic's word for it.

IAmGraydon 9y ago
Who do you consider to be a great composer?
zwieback 9y ago
You're not the only one who feels like that and you can safely ignore the critics. There's no doubt Bach was a great composer but even asking the question whether there's a "greatest" is pretty dumb. I happen to love some of Bach's works but know many people who find his works too mathematical or cold.
- planxty 9y ago
  I would wager they haven't listened to good performances or haven't spent enough time with Bach's music. There's nothing cold about BWV199. Find Gardiner's rendition featuring Magdalena Kozena, it'll knock your socks off.
  - zwieback 9y ago
    Wow, her voice is fantastic. Listening to her Rueckert Lieder now, thanks for the tip!!

adamsea 9y ago

Prince!

IAmGraydon 9y ago

Douglas Adams once said "Beethoven tells you what it's like to be Beethoven and Mozart tells you what it's like to be human. Bach tells you what it's like to be the universe." As a musician, I understand this. It's our goal as musicians to channel and convey emotion. Bach channels something much greater than himself or myself or ourselves. It's really incredible. His music sounds vast.

planxty 9y ago
The article describes an agnostic man being drawn to faith by Bach's music. I am no Christian, but this is my own experience as well. Douglas Adams is correct.
sotojuan 9y ago
I'm a Mozart (and Haydn) fan and this quote is still correct. I prefer the humanist approach to music of the late 1700s over Bach's. They're all great though :-)
K3oT6n 9y ago
I can feel extreme sublime elevation from form few pieces of music I'm completely familiar with. One is Bach's Goldberg Variations (Glenn Could's first faster recording is my favorite) and another is "He Loved Him Madly" from Miles Davis (there are few others). In all cases it fist happens after I listen nothing but the same piece over and over again maybe 10-15 times in a period of week. It's amazing feeling. Something just clicks. But the experience is different from different pieces of music. Miles Davis is expressing something based on humanity. Bach is, like you said, something else that transcends everything.
stagbeetle 9y ago
And Vivaldi reminds you what it's like to be a child again.
_emacsomancer_ 9y ago
Adams also wrote: "The familiarity of the Brandenburgs should not blind us to their magnitude. I’m convinced that Bach is the greater genius who ever walked among us, and the Brandenburgs are what he wrote when he was happy."

siglesias 9y ago

If anyone is interested in Bach's keyboard literature, it's hard to top the interpretations of Glenn Gould, a fascinating musician in his own right. Here, for example, is a seminal performance of the D minor concerto, conducted by Leonard Bernstein: https://youtu.be/9ZX_XCYokQo?t=5m9s https://youtu.be/9ZX_XCYokQo?t=5m9s

poulsbohemian 9y ago
I like Gould, but there's something I like more about Simone Dinnerstein's rendition of the Goldberg Variations. It's somehow warmer sounding to me over the precision of Gould.
madhadron 9y ago
But note that it may not be to your taste if you do try them. I specialized in early music, and I hate Gould's playing. There are places in the two part inventions where it feels to me like he chose his tempo to see how much he could screw up the piece.

planxty 9y ago

No, no composer can equal Bach. Done. Upvote to the top please. :P

creatornator 9y ago

No one equals Bach, but some come close enough to make the answer unclear. My favorite trivia about Boston's Symphony Hall is that there are dozens of empty plaques along the balconies, where composer's names were going to be engraved when the hall was built. The only name the trustees could agree on was Beethoven. Not Bach, Mozart, Haydn, etc., only Beethoven, and his name is front and center, above the stage. [0] [0]: https://www.bso.org/brands/symphony-hall/about-us/historyarchives/the-history-of-symphony-hall.aspx https://www.bso.org/brands/symphony-hall/about-us/historyarc...

british_india 9y ago

Yes, Mozart!

_emacsomancer_ 9y ago

There are a number of great but not as well known earlier composers. William Lawes comes to mind.

aimeric 9y ago

Since we're on this topic: Is Western classical music (typified by Bach) really the zenith in our human understanding of the 'universal' language of music? Certainly, the complex and subtle tunes and harmonies of classical, in particular, give us goosebumps, provoke intense emotional responses. Do the same phenomena occur in other musical cultures? Traditional Japanese, Chinese, Javanese, Indian - their musical expression is markedly different. Try out some ancient Greek scales, from the dawn of our Western civilization: unfamiliar, yet still 'tingly'. So are there equivalents to Bach that we're just not 'in tune' with? Alternative musical structures that are just as valid, yet wildly unfamiliar? Akira - Kaneda's Theme: https://youtu.be/hpDvtIt6Lsc https://youtu.be/hpDvtIt6Lsc Indonesian Gamelan orchestra: https://youtu.be/sZZTfu4jWcI https://youtu.be/sZZTfu4jWcI What Ancient Greek Music Sounded Like: https://soundcloud.com/archaeologymag/what-ancient-greek-music https://soundcloud.com/archaeologymag/what-ancient-greek-mus... Ancient Krell Music (Forbidden Planet, 1956): https://youtu.be/oNKhju6Pryg https://youtu.be/oNKhju6Pryg

niftilyeerily 9y ago
Indian Classical Music is perhaps the most versatile of all kinds of music I have come across. A traditional western scale has 12 notes, in the Indian system (carnatic) there are four further divisions, making it a 48 note octave. Instead of scales, there are raags and they signify different moods. Indian Flute Meditation Music: https://youtu.be/mr8GBzTsWqM https://youtu.be/mr8GBzTsWqM
- tacomonstrous 9y ago
  >48 note octave That's somewhat of an exaggeration. There are embellishments of notes that border half and quarter-notes, but they are usually centered around a point on the 12 note octave. Also, there is a price to be paid for the melodic complexity: there is essentially no place for harmony in the Indian tradition. On the other hand, there is a lot more room for improvisation, making it more akin to Jazz than to any Western classical form.
- davesque 9y ago
  Indian classical is for sure cool and does a lot of interesting stuff rhythmically speaking. Also lots of interesting instruments and corresponding techniques for playing them. But I don't think it's necessarily any more versatile than other musical traditions. If Western classical is less interesting rhythmically, it's more interesting harmonically. It also developed an incredible system of notation. Every kind of music has its thing that makes it stand out I guess.

exolymph 9y ago

today in "completely subjective judgments"

whack 9y ago

Ironically enough, I think the author did a fantastic job of demonstrating why "writing about music" is a fool's game. I love Bach as well, but what makes him the "ultimate", beyond reach of others like Mozart? The article paints numerous glowing tributes by Bach's fans, presents the inspiration of his life, but fails utterly in answering the ultimate question. I've always believed that art is qualitatively different from pop entertainment. The latter is purely subjective, and aims to pleasure us. Art, in contrast, is defined by its ability to inspire its audience. Its ability to elevate the way we think, act, and look upon the world. Which is more tasty, chocolate or oranges? That's an impossible question to answer in any objective manner. But which is more nutritious? Which is better for our health? That is something which can be quantified and discussed much more objectively. I look forward to the day we can have similar discussions about art.

Cyph0n 9y ago
> I've always believed that art is qualitatively different from pop entertainment. The latter is purely subjective, and aims to pleasure us. Art, in contrast, is defined by its ability to inspire its audience. So art, unlike pop entertainment, is not purely subjective? And can pop entertainment not "inspire its audience" or "elevate the way we think"? > Which is more tasty, chocolate or oranges? That's an impossible question to answer in any objective manner. But which is more nutritious? Which is better for our health? That is something which can be quantified and discussed much more objectively. If your goal was to provide an analogy for art vs. pop entertainment, I don't think it worked. > I look forward to the day we can have similar discussions about art. That might happen, but only when art, like nutritional value, can be objectively evaluated and have its "beauty" (or whatever the term is) concretely quantified.
sotojuan 9y ago
> The latter is purely subjective, and aims to pleasure us. A lot of composers of the Classical era such as Haydn would gladly say their music is made for the pleasure of all or as many people as possible ("I write my music in order that the weary and worn or the men burdened with affairs might enjoy a few minutes of solace and refreshment."). In fact, I would argue the whole point of the Classical style of the late 1700s was to move away from (in their words) "elitist" and complicated music of Bach and the opera seria, Mozart's operas being much easier to relate to as an average Joe than Monteverdi's. Yet all their works are inspiring and elevating - I think both goals can be achieved.

resource0x 9y ago

It's hard to compare for equality, but in terms of musical talent, overall - Keith Jarrett. For some context: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3FEBz5fby8&t=2464s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3FEBz5fby8&t=2464s

jancsika 9y ago

> It’s inconceivable that another composer could take Bach’s place in that slot. Even Mozart or Beethoven wouldn’t cut it. I'd pick Mozart. When listeners hear Bach enumerate what seems like every significant variation technique for a given theme, they can quickly attribute mastery upon hearing that one piece. But someone with Bach's abilities could just as easily have only imagined all those variations as potential music, then chosen only a few excerpts for a lighter, shorter setting. Now, imagine this alternative-timeline Bach wrote in a late 18th century operatic form. For each aria he a) picks a fitting style (or mashes up fitting/effective styles), b) imagines the set of possible music based on the character of the text, and c) chooses what he thinks is the most fitting from all those possibilities. (Also, throw in a bunch of hidden musical jokes along the way.) That alternative-timeline Bach would be superior to the real Bach. Because he came after the real Bach his output includes real Bach's mastery of counterpoint (Jupiter Symphony, Intro to Requiem). Also alternative-timeline Bach can imitate real Bach's style at will (two-part invention at the end of Rondo in A minor). The only difficulty is that the listener has to listen to a lot of alternative-timeline Bach before they start to get a sense of the scope of his mastery. Well, good thing the slot we're trying to fill gives an audience plenty of time to hear a variety of music from this composer's output. Bach++ ftw.

asaph 9y ago
> It’s inconceivable that another composer could take Bach’s place... I'd like to put my vote in for Lennon-McCartney. I know we're talking about classical music here and I'm not trolling. I just think they're the toppermost of the poppermost.
- jancsika 9y ago
  There's definitely a lot of innovation with them, and not just in songwriting. For example, I can't figure why Helter Skelter has somehow managed to sound like it was recorded yesterday for five decades now. How many other recordings from 1968 sound like that? But I can imagine a world where an alternate Lennon-McCartney arranged all their own string parts, dominated the symphonic world, wrote wildly popular church service music, performed guitar showcase music with prominent (probably improvised) cadenzas, and had multiple hits running on Broadway. I think you could pick any single genre, burn everything else Mozart wrote, and he'd still be regarded as one of the greatest composers of his time. (That doesn't work for Beethoven because of the opera genre.) Rich people at parties are still playing the throw-away background music he probably wrote for a rich person's party. (Btw-- if you listen to the rest of his background music you won't be disappointed.)

wizardforhire 9y ago

The Chaconne [1] is the most moving piece of music I've ever heard. (hard stop) The story behind it makes it even more so. When you grok it at full volume you'll understand what Douglas Adams was talking about. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaconne https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaconne

madhadron 9y ago
Whenever someone in my life has died, I have picked up my violin and played the Chaconne.
ibz 9y ago
Helene Grimaud's interpretation [1] of Busoni's transcription for piano is also pretty amazing. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sw9DlMNnpPM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sw9DlMNnpPM
- jacquesm 9y ago
  That gives me gooseflesh. Thank you for this.
darkerside 9y ago
Listened for the first time, thanks to your comment. Beautiful.
TheOtherHobbes 9y ago
If he’d never written anything else, the Chaconne alone would be enough to make him one of the greats.

Uhhrrr 9y ago

Good candidate for Betteridge's Law.

bane 9y ago

Now there is music from which a man can learn something. - W. A. Mozart (on hearing Bach motets in Leipzig) In the multiverse I'm supremely happy that I've ended up in one where Bach both existed and created tremendous amounts of music. You can spend a lifetime exploring his oeuvre and find entire corners of delight. I'm reminded of this thread from 2014: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7720708 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7720708 Despite appearances to the contrary, I find that one of the powerful things about Bach's work is how it is almost a kind of "abstract" auditory form that just happens to be performed on instruments. What I mean is that many of his pieces can be performed equally well on just about any combination of instruments or voice and still be beautiful. It's not always true, but there's a strange density of his music that seems like this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zkPaGnKb5M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zkPaGnKb5M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BvwM07BYvg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BvwM07BYvg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKRj-T4l-e8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKRj-T4l-e8 Some favorites: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLj_gMBqHX8&t=353s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLj_gMBqHX8&t=353s (BWV 1048 III Allegro) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWlfmepsUuQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWlfmepsUuQ (BWV 1049) - the reason why the Recorder has value as an instrument https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tc4kWmxpZGs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tc4kWmxpZGs (BWV 1060) - Every note the Oboe plays is made out of magic and delight here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CexJQ8VWJfY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CexJQ8VWJfY (BWV 1051) - Even Violas can be beautiful, and this is one of the most incredible pieces of music in all of music. I think the next composer to have captured my attention has been Steve Reich. And for entirely different reasons. I can take or leave his earliest highly experimental works. But when he came into full form later on he created majesty. Some of this music feel like being inside the engines of creation. You'll find his fingerprints all over modern music. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Np9yApXD94 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Np9yApXD94 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMsYuFrKUQ8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMsYuFrKUQ8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLZelvSvh3A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLZelvSvh3A

ScipioAfricanus 9y ago

Do yourself a favor and find The Canadian Brass' recording of Bach's glorious Art of Fugue. My God it's beautiful.

8bitsrule 9y ago

Bach is the 'ultimate composer' in the same sense that Pleistocene Ogg is the ultimate tool-maker, Robert Goddard the ultimate rocket-maker. Bach did many wondrous things, added a lot to the vocabulary, staked a viable claim on a couple of mother lodes. But this sort of argument (though eternally engaged in) is futile. While classical is a favorite of many (including me), music has moved far, far onward.

archagon 9y ago
Onward, but not forward. Counterpoint is still depressingly underused in modern music (save for the occasional duet), and it can say so much with so little material. (Heck, the majority modern music barely even changes chords, let let alone key or anything beyond.) These tools are not antiquated; they are not buried in the sediment. They are still perfectly useful and there for our taking, if only we would dust them off.
- qiqitori 9y ago
  If by counterpoint you mean having melody on a different track (rather than just "beat" or added harmony) I'd say it's used way more than just in duets/canons. Most jazz (or accompaniment in general) would apply for example. https://youtu.be/GhCXAiNz9Jo?t=1m22s https://youtu.be/GhCXAiNz9Jo?t=1m22s Does this apply? (Franz Ferdinand - Take Me Out) I think counterpoint is used more than people think. Saying that we haven't moved "forward" from Bach is disingenuous, when Bach didn't even have straight 7th chords.
  - archagon 9y ago
    I'd say counterpoint requires the melodies to be on more-or-less equal footing, which doesn't really happen in this clip. (I'm sure it happens way more often in jazz, but I'm not an avid listener.) In any case, you definitely won't be hearing the kinds of crazy thematic transformations that Bach uses in his fugues. I didn't mean to imply that our music is unequivocally less advanced than Bach's — we've certainly acquired musical tools over the years that Bach would never have dreamed of! — but I also don't believe that his music should be viewed as a mere archeological layer in music history. It's still alive, it still resonates with modern audiences, and it still uses techniques that are rarely seen even today. We can still profit tremendously from it.

andbberger 9y ago

No.

DEbCB 9y ago

HN types think they're the smartest of the smart, yet judging from these comments and from other music-related posts I've seen here, most of you listen to popular music (including rock and rap) near exclusively. The comments seriously offering up pop stars as equals of Bach are just sad. Go on a pop diet. Cut back on it the way you might sugar or processed foods. Try to spend a year listening to classical music only. These resources will help you get started: https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/music https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/music https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLh9mgdi4rNezhx8YiGIV8I22ICSuzslja https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLh9mgdi4rNezhx8YiGIV8...

maxerickson 9y ago
I'm curious, are you hating on Beethoven and Mozart or did you just not read the comments that you presume to summarize?
- DEbCB 9y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16556892 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16556892 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16556192 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16556192 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16556033 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16556033
  - maxerickson 9y ago
    Most?
    - DEbCB 9y ago
      Yes, most. Most HNers have zero appreciation for serious music. This post announcing the death of David Bowie got 1484 upvotes and 301 comments (and the brave few who criticized it as off-topic got flagged): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10879262 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10879262 By contrast, the death of Boulez, love him or hate him, got two upvotes and zero comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10850214 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10850214 And the deaths of Claudio Abbado and Alexis Weissenberg, as additional examples, were ignored completely.

FraKtus 9y ago

The music of Bach is pretty unique to listen to while coding. The parallel structure of the music lines goes very well for a developer that must coordinate multiple tasks. I discovered bach by myself, and it was a pretty downing task. For curious minds, I would recommend the Goldberg variation, the cello suite and the violin concerto in E major (BWV 1042) as a starting point. At first most of his work may seem like a wall because so much is happening ... but with time you see the light. I remember at first the well-tempered keyboard was like that, but now it just flows so nicely. It's also a delight to listen to his music on original instruments such as the harpsichord. The music is so much clearer when played on a harpsichord. From the same epoch there are so many more to discover, one of my favorite is Domenico Scarlatti and his 555 sonatas to be listened on harpsicord played by Scott Ross!

cup-of-tea 9y ago

Today I am quitting reddit completely. With some of the time that I will save every day I will listen to a piece of Bach. I've read Gödel, Escher, Bach but never actually listened to Bach.

forapurpose 9y ago
Yes, as I was reading the article I thought, 'would my time be better spent listening to Bach?' Maybe I should be thinking that now ...

te0006 9y ago

If you can name a short (<5 mins) piece of music more beautiful, moving but also all-encompassing than Bach's "Air on a G-String" please do so; I can't. Listen to this interpretation before deciding: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cVSgEdT4KI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cVSgEdT4KI . Love, loss, despair, grievance, new hope, closure - it's all in there in this single, short, compassionate-but-not-sentimental, solemn-but-not-sad, perfectly balanced, ethereal piece.

MrJagil 9y ago
Been loving this lately https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eGybwV3U9W8 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eGybwV3U9W8
- jacquesm 9y ago
  Thank you both those are beautiful.
  - mercer 9y ago
    Seriously! This is making my Saturday even better than I hoped it would be. I often forget properly listening, and instead end up having the same bunch of Spotify songs on repeat throughout the week. For all the suggestions in this thread I even dusted off my 'really good but uncomfortable' headphones :).
coldtea 9y ago
Try: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXMVkQ70I88 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXMVkQ70I88 (Bach) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-Xm7s9eGxU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-Xm7s9eGxU (Satie) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeAc0oh818s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeAc0oh818s (Beethoven)
kenny87 9y ago
a quite beautiful polyphonic piece: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSPaJLXfd-w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSPaJLXfd-w. but agreed that some of the most beautiful musical pieces mankind has ever created can be found in the Western classical music tradition. i don't care very much for comparing who is better than whom.

mad_tortoise 9y ago

Bach is my ninth great-grandfather for what its worth.

moosebear 9y ago
Are you in touch with any other Bach descendants? What do you all get up to?
- mad_tortoise 9y ago
  I only know my siblings and cousins, that have the same grandmother. We hang out when we see each other and are in the same country. Weirdly, when I was a kid there was some sort of royalty money that someone messaged my father about.

te_chris 9y ago

A key thing to remember about the baroque period: it was almost all improvised - the original jazz, if you will. Tonal harmony was one of my favourite papers at music school, learning the rules of harmony to compose pieces like this from scratch. I wasn’t great at it, but it’s an amazing skill to observe in those that can do it. I once had a guitar masterclass and the tutor just stood up, jumped on the piano and improvised a fugue. Our minds were blown.

Moorcountry 9y ago

As a pianist from the age of 5 my ranking would be Mozart, Bach, than Beethoven. Mozart was a prodigy on a level unheard of. He wrote in so many different genres and such a short time period. Mostly though, is the pure beauty and lyricism of his music. The consistency of quality. The Requiem and the Magic Flute are required listening.

gshubert17 9y ago

Early in Neal Stephenson's Cryptonomicon, a math teacher and organist explains to Lawrence Waterhouse how organs worked. "When Lawrence understood, it was as if the math teacher had suddenly played the good part of Bach's Fantasia and Fugue in G Minor [BWV 542] on a pipe organ the size of the Spiral Nebula in Andromeda—the part where Uncle Johann dissects the architecture of the Universe in one merciless escending ever-mutating chord, as if his foot is thrusting through skidding layers of garbage until it finally strikes bedrock. In particular, the final steps of the organist's explanation were like a falcon's dive through layer after layer of pretense and illusion, thrilling or sickening or confusing depending on what you were. The heavens were riven open. Lawrence glimpsed choirs of angels ranking off into geometrical infinity."

nomonomus 9y ago

"Classical music has a lighter, clearer texture than Baroque music and is less complex. It is mainly homophonic — a clear melody above a subordinate chordal accompaniment. Counterpoint was by no means forgotten, especially later in the period."[0] People, just listen to some music, it doesn't matter, that the music is in decline since the baroque period - the music needs listeners. [edit] "Since there was a greater emphasis on a single melodic line, there was greater emphasis on notating that line for dynamics and phrasing. This contrasts with the Baroque era, when melodies were typically written with no dynamics, phrasing marks or ornaments, as it was assumed that the performer would improvise these elements on the spot. In the Classical era, it became more common for composers to indicate where they wanted performers to play ornaments such as trills or turns. The simplification of texture made such instrumental detail more important, and also made the use of characteristic rhythms, such as attention-getting opening fanfares, the funeral march rhythm, or the minuet genre, more important in establishing and unifying the tone of a single movement."[0] So, hello modern music, hello rap/r&b/soul and the likes. It's not worse, it's incomparable. Most people react on rhythm and catchy sounds, hearing no music at all, really. Comparing music is nuts as many here pointed out, and the question was different - can we have the next Bach? For me, the answer is "yes", for sure! Can we hear him/her? - perhaps no, label's target group is different. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_period_(music) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_period_(music)

truculation 9y ago

On the BBC's Desert Island Discs Douglas Adams chose pieces by Bach for no less than three of his eight permitted musical recordings. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0093qxj http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0093qxj

davesque 9y ago

Bach is one of my favorite composers if not my most favorite. However, as someone with a formal education in Western classical, it's always bothered me how heroic figures are worshipped in the tradition, often while ignoring other great artists. What I find much more interesting about Bach is the story of how he became famous as a composer, which as far as I know had a lot to do with the reputation and advocacy if his sons after his death. During his lifetime, he was known much more as a virtuosic organist.

ahdroit 9y ago

https://youtu.be/9ZX_XCYokQo https://youtu.be/9ZX_XCYokQo Glenn Gould and Leonard Bernstein: Bach's Keyboard Concerto No 1 in D minor (BWV 1052)

tabtab 9y ago

Bach's works can be strangely hypnotic in a way that's rare from other artists. It's not inherently intense or dramatic, but has a way of triggering intensity and drama through secondary means. I compare it to harmonic induction, like pushing somebody on a swing. Each push is gentle pressure, but the end result is high flying. Other artists require a catapult to take you up there, and it makes a big racket. Bach sneaks you up there without you noticing until a cloud sprays you with moisture.