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I've always wondered why we still have such crappy roads, given that roads are possibly the oldest technology there is, and every civilized place on earth has p

I've always wondered why we still have such crappy roads, given that roads are possibly the oldest technology there is, and every civilized place on earth has paved roads, thus making an enormous potential market for a better solution. Either: 1) Most people don't care as much as I do about the bone-jarring, car-ruining potholes that are ubiquitous in every cold climate on earth, and thus aren't willing to spend their tax money on fixing it, or 2) Engineering a better road is simply too hard of an engineering problem, so what we have is the best we can do at the moment. Or equivalently, any better roads we do know how to make are too cost-prohibitive. Maybe I'll forward this article to my local representatives.

lubesGordi 9y ago
I was always under the impression we have crappy roads because of planned obsolescence. Basically we have crappy roads because we need to employ union workers to fix them. So the $50 million we save not fixing crappy roads is basically $50 million out of the union income, which impacts elections. I don't know if this is actually the case, but it seems plausible.
daveguy 9y ago
Well... We have been engineering better roads. Compared to brick or packed earth, asphalt is high tech. New materials and mixes are researched and tried. Some recent roads seem to have lighter finish than traditional blacktop. You are right though, it is a cost vs durability issue.
- zhdc1 9y ago
  This, by far. I can't tell you how many times I've had to listen to my significant other (a roadway engineer) talk about new types of asphalt designed to reduce noise pollution, last longer, or fulfil some sort of edge-case requirement. Surprisingly, for as bad as roadway construction is in the states (and it's absolutely awful), the US apparently leads the rest of the world in the study of roadway materials.
DennisP 9y ago
Or (3) the paving companies are happy with planned obsolescence, and the deciding customers are politicians who will move on before the new roads go bad, and won't be criticized anyway for authorizing the same methods everyone else uses. No individual involved has a strong incentive to make things better. Unless, of course, constituents start making an issue of it with their local representatives :)
- zhdc1 9y ago
  I don't get the impression that paving companies are around long enough (or have anywhere enough influence) to intentionally rig the system in this way. Infrastructure is absolutely neglected in the US and Canada - municipal and state/provincial governments try to get away with as being cheap as possible, and deferring as much maintenance as possible, and... well, you get what you pay for.
  - DennisP 9y ago
    I don't think they're intentionally rigging the system. I just think they have no particular motivation to make roads last longer, so they don't bother. (If a longer-lasting road had a much higher cost, then it'd clearly not be their issue at all, but the solution in the article sounds like it'd cost about the same.)
petra 9y ago
>> I've always wondered why we still have such crappy roads Reading this story, maybe the major problem is new technology adoption in government, for an infrastructure project, where measuring better performance takes years. Each of this processes is long, and conservative, and risky and together they multiplies - so it's really hard to innovate here. And i don't think there are good strategies against that.
DubiousPusher 9y ago
> 2) Engineering a better road is simply too hard of an engineering problem, so what we have is the best we can do at the moment. Or equivalently, any better roads we do know how to make are too cost-prohibitive. This is essentially the case. Asphalt roads as they exist today are basically a really good compromise of all the variables you care about in a road. They are farely durable, are easy to repair, can be laid across various terrains, give good traction, offer a continuous driving surface, shed water farely well, and are realtively cheap. For example cement roads last longer but are not continuous. They have those breaches every few yards that make that obnoxious bump... bump... bump experience. They also have inferior grip. It's basically the same reason you probably have vinyl windows. Everyone kind of knows they aren't ideal but they are a good compromise of strength, cost and energy efficiency. You can easily beat asphalt in any one given area but it's hard to do as well across all areas.
- EvilTerran 9y ago
  > relatively cheap This is a surprisingly big factor: we get bitumen from refining crude oil whether we want it or not, and the endless demand for the lighter fractions of crude means we're gonna do a lot of refining regardless, so the market had to find something to do with the left-over sludge. Also pushing the price down, asphalt is almost completely recyclable: when a worn-out road surface finally gets dug up & replaced, the old asphalt doesn't go to landfill - it can be crushed up, melted down, and re-layed somewhere else. So much of the demand doesn't actually much reduce the amount on the market. Compare to, say, concrete: we don't make concrete unless we want concrete, it's not a byproduct of an otherwise-useful process; and once you dig it up, you can only re-use it as ugly gravel, you can't turn it back into fresh concrete.
  - nugi 9y ago
    I wonder what shifts in road construction we will see as petro offcast becomes less common, and go up in price? Lubricants, plastics, etc all stand to see a hike.
dsfyu404ed 9y ago
>I've always wondered why we still have such crappy roads Because crappy, like poverty is relative and very much subjective.
onychomys 9y ago
Thanks to the last line in your comment, I forwarded it to mine!

lubesGordi 9y ago

I was always under the impression we have crappy roads because of planned obsolescence. Basically we have crappy roads because we need to employ union workers to fix them. So the $50 million we save not fixing crappy roads is basically $50 million out of the union income, which impacts elections. I don't know if this is actually the case, but it seems plausible.

daveguy 9y ago

Well... We have been engineering better roads. Compared to brick or packed earth, asphalt is high tech. New materials and mixes are researched and tried. Some recent roads seem to have lighter finish than traditional blacktop. You are right though, it is a cost vs durability issue.

zhdc1 9y ago
This, by far. I can't tell you how many times I've had to listen to my significant other (a roadway engineer) talk about new types of asphalt designed to reduce noise pollution, last longer, or fulfil some sort of edge-case requirement. Surprisingly, for as bad as roadway construction is in the states (and it's absolutely awful), the US apparently leads the rest of the world in the study of roadway materials.

DennisP 9y ago

Or (3) the paving companies are happy with planned obsolescence, and the deciding customers are politicians who will move on before the new roads go bad, and won't be criticized anyway for authorizing the same methods everyone else uses. No individual involved has a strong incentive to make things better. Unless, of course, constituents start making an issue of it with their local representatives :)

zhdc1 9y ago
I don't get the impression that paving companies are around long enough (or have anywhere enough influence) to intentionally rig the system in this way. Infrastructure is absolutely neglected in the US and Canada - municipal and state/provincial governments try to get away with as being cheap as possible, and deferring as much maintenance as possible, and... well, you get what you pay for.
- DennisP 9y ago
  I don't think they're intentionally rigging the system. I just think they have no particular motivation to make roads last longer, so they don't bother. (If a longer-lasting road had a much higher cost, then it'd clearly not be their issue at all, but the solution in the article sounds like it'd cost about the same.)

petra 9y ago

>> I've always wondered why we still have such crappy roads Reading this story, maybe the major problem is new technology adoption in government, for an infrastructure project, where measuring better performance takes years. Each of this processes is long, and conservative, and risky and together they multiplies - so it's really hard to innovate here. And i don't think there are good strategies against that.

DubiousPusher 9y ago

> 2) Engineering a better road is simply too hard of an engineering problem, so what we have is the best we can do at the moment. Or equivalently, any better roads we do know how to make are too cost-prohibitive. This is essentially the case. Asphalt roads as they exist today are basically a really good compromise of all the variables you care about in a road. They are farely durable, are easy to repair, can be laid across various terrains, give good traction, offer a continuous driving surface, shed water farely well, and are realtively cheap. For example cement roads last longer but are not continuous. They have those breaches every few yards that make that obnoxious bump... bump... bump experience. They also have inferior grip. It's basically the same reason you probably have vinyl windows. Everyone kind of knows they aren't ideal but they are a good compromise of strength, cost and energy efficiency. You can easily beat asphalt in any one given area but it's hard to do as well across all areas.

EvilTerran 9y ago
> relatively cheap This is a surprisingly big factor: we get bitumen from refining crude oil whether we want it or not, and the endless demand for the lighter fractions of crude means we're gonna do a lot of refining regardless, so the market had to find something to do with the left-over sludge. Also pushing the price down, asphalt is almost completely recyclable: when a worn-out road surface finally gets dug up & replaced, the old asphalt doesn't go to landfill - it can be crushed up, melted down, and re-layed somewhere else. So much of the demand doesn't actually much reduce the amount on the market. Compare to, say, concrete: we don't make concrete unless we want concrete, it's not a byproduct of an otherwise-useful process; and once you dig it up, you can only re-use it as ugly gravel, you can't turn it back into fresh concrete.
- nugi 9y ago
  I wonder what shifts in road construction we will see as petro offcast becomes less common, and go up in price? Lubricants, plastics, etc all stand to see a hike.

dsfyu404ed 9y ago

>I've always wondered why we still have such crappy roads Because crappy, like poverty is relative and very much subjective.

onychomys 9y ago

Thanks to the last line in your comment, I forwarded it to mine!