9 ms·
On its 100th anniversary, the madness of Daylight Saving Time endures
- sparrish 9y agoDST is so disruptive to my children's life and thus my life. I should move back to Arizona. Curse you DST!
- juanmirocks 9y agoI'm in central Europe. I sincerely do not understand the problem people have with changing a single hour in a single day during a weekend in the year.
- juanmirocks 9y agoMoreover if you are used to changing timezones due to travel, this makes absolutely no difference.
- WillPostForFood 9y agoI agree, it would be like a travel magazine devoting an article of the difficulties of adjusting to the time change when flying from Stockholm to Helsinki.
- ghaff 9y ago:-) I’m somewhat sympathetic to the complaints of parents with young children but as someone who travels about 100 days a year, almost entirely to different and often distant time zones a 1 hour change isn’t even really on my radar.
- styfle 9y agoAs someone who travels a lot, do you think timezones are valuable or do you think there would be value in everyone adopting UTC?
- juanmirocks 9y agoThis is a good question and I guess there are pros and cons. This would certainly simplify schedules and meetings between different time zones. On the other hand, it would totally screw up our understanding of when things are supposed to happen, specially when traveling. Like as in: it is 3am, is it time for lunch now ? My biggest question anyway is how we will manage time once we become a multi planet species.
- styfle 9y ago> it is 3am, is it time for lunch now? Why can't you eat when you're hungry? Why can't you go to sleep when it gets dark? A better way to manage when things should happen is to create a schedule which could be defined in UTC. I don't think the time zones really solve this problem. For example, I might assume that I can eat dinner when my plane lands in my destination around 8pm. But when I look for a local restaurant, they all close at 8pm because it's a smaller town. I still need to look at the hours of operation for that business. So I can't really make assumptions based on the local time anyway so why do we need to adjust them. > how we will manage time once we become a multi planet species. Excellent question! We would probably need to remove the concept of "days" because that is relative to the current planet.
- ghaff 9y agoTime zones are valuable. They let me easily convert to local time which gives me a pretty good immediate intuitive feel (modulo differences in customs) for the types of activities appropriate to that time of day. Mind you. I screw things up. Just did it with a meeting the other day. But with electronic calendaring it’s not too bad. Added: when traveling, time zones let me change my watch once and I immediately more or less know time appropriate activities that more or less correspond to what I’m used to at home.
- juanmirocks 9y agoI must ask: I do not have children. Do young fellas go crazy over a change in 1 hour or what?
- tatersolid 9y agoMy kids are a slight pain in the ass for a few days after “spring forward”. Despite all attempts to ensure plenty of sleep, there’s always increased fighting, crying and - like today - increased physical clumsiness that results in a 6 year old skinning his hands and knees on the sidewalk.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- aleksei 9y agoTo be fair, it isn't really that big of a deal. However, it wouldn't be that hard to stop playing around with the clocks either. I'm in Northern Europe and the early onset of afternoon darkness in winter is too real to not complain about it.
- skerit 9y agoBut that's the problem, right? The extra hour of sunshine we get thanks to DST in the spring & summer is exactly what most people want to get rid of.
- ghaff 9y agoNot really. People don’t want to change clocks. And I doubt anyone really has an issue with long light evenings in the summer. But at least some number of people, especially in the North, don’t want it to be pitch black in the winter when they’re getting up, kids are waiting for school buses, etc.
- aleksei 9y agoI didn't mean that to be the main point but yes, I would prefer DST.
- fao_ 9y agohttps://lifehacker.com/the-truth-about-jet-lag-and-how-to-overcome-it-1575151287 https://lifehacker.com/the-truth-about-jet-lag-and-how-to-ov... https://sleepfoundation.org/sleep-topics/jet-lag-and-sleep https://sleepfoundation.org/sleep-topics/jet-lag-and-sleep https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/jet-lag/ https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/jet-lag/
- WalterGR 9y agoWhat are you trying to say with those links?
- originalbryan2 9y agoBetter yet, why not change your clocks slightly, every day, following the changing sunset/sunrise, to fully optimize each day? It'd only take 5 minutes a day to do all of my clocks.
- ErnestedCode 9y agoAre you talking about people adjusting their clocks and their bodies to accommodate the change in time? Very few people have a big problem with that. The problems arise when accommodating the change programmatically in code. How many times did Apple fuck this up with the first few versions of the iPhone with alarms not going off at the right time? 2010 https://www.cultofmac.com/67254/how-to-avoid-the-iphone-daylight-savings-bug/ https://www.cultofmac.com/67254/how-to-avoid-the-iphone-dayl... 2011 http://osxdaily.com/2011/03/13/iphone-daylight-savings-time-bug-fall-back-instead-of-spring-forward/ http://osxdaily.com/2011/03/13/iphone-daylight-savings-time-... 2012 http://www.iphonehacks.com/2012/03/iphone-daylight-savings-time-bug.html http://www.iphonehacks.com/2012/03/iphone-daylight-savings-t...
- juanmirocks 9y agoNever had this issue. And again, at least in Central Europe they do the change from Saturday to Sunday when it’s understood that most people have less constraints with tight times and alarms.
- chrismcb 9y agoConsidering that heart attacks rise right after the time change, and other people have sleep issues, I would guess a lot of people have a problem with adjusting their internal clicks.
- zeveb 9y ago> I sincerely do not understand the problem people have with changing a single hour in a single day during a weekend in the year. Other than the fact that it's a colossal waste of time for everyone who has to do it, and it kills people? Every year, people will be dead the Tuesday after the time change who would have been alive had the time not changed. Also, of course, it's not a single day — it's twice a year.
- spraak 9y agoI think you're being silly, but I don't quite get it.
- zeveb 9y agoNo, I'm not being silly: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/11152980/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/11152980/ > There was a significant increase in accidents for the Monday immediately following the spring shift to DST (t=1.92, P=0.034).
- tzar 9y agoIt only kills people in autumn; in spring many live to see another day.
- zeveb 9y agoNot true, according to an NIH study: > There was a significant increase in accidents for the Monday immediately following the spring shift to DST (t=1.92, P=0.034). There was also a significant increase in number of accidents on the Sunday of the fall shift from DST (P<0.002). No significant changes were observed for the other days. A significant negative correlation with the year was found between the number of accidents on the Saturdays and Sundays but not Mondays. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/11152980/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/11152980/
- djrogers 9y agoI think most of the people who have a problem with it ( me included ) don’t mind the act of changing clocks, but dislike the effect it has on the sun. In my case I love sunny evenings and nights, but don’t care if it’s dark til 8am. Others would prefer to always have more sun in the AM and forgo the late evening rounds of golf...
- juanmirocks 9y agoI can understand that.
- antientropic 9y agoThe main reason to dislike it is because it's pointless. There are all sorts of pointless-but-not-too-onerous activities that we could have the government impose on society, but that doesn't mean we should. The ritual of DST mostly seems to survive because people are convinced it must be good for something. Otherwise, surely we wouldn't be doing it...
- spraak 9y agoSpeaking from my experience of only living in places that don't use DST (Thailand), it was very disorientating to me this year (now living in California). The act of changing the clocks itself isn't difficult (mostly besides the oven everything does it automatically). It's that all of a sudden my perception of the day didn't match the external, agreed upon reality. I'd rather just adjust my personal schedule relative to a fixed time rather than have the time schedule change somewhat arbitrarily.
- juanmirocks 9y agoI understand the very first time(s) may feel weird, but I bet you will get used to it
- fao_ 9y agoAs someone who lives in the UK and has never not experienced DST. It doesn't get any better.
- WillPostForFood 9y agoIf you could stack rank the problems of the world, it would become clear that there shouldn’t be time to write articles complaining about daylight savings time.
- Karunamon 9y agoGiven the massively increased percentages of death, injury, lost productivity, etc that's associated with shifting the clocks around twice a year, I would say it's a pretty big deal and worth addressing.
- WillPostForFood 9y agoa healthy dose of skepticism might be in order if you think there are massive increases in death. I’ve seen the articles too, but please, throw on a skeptics hat when you read them. Easy enough to fudge those statistics to say whatever gets you in print. Think about it reductively next time your boss calls for an early meeting - is he trying to kill you? Negligent because of the massive risk of death you now face trying to get to the office an hour early? It is all a little absurd.
- metamet 9y agoIt's also a little absurd to think it has no impact at all.
- Karunamon 9y ago"Skepticism" might apply more if we were dealing with clickbait, but when you compare the "benefits" that DST provides with the misery that it causes, eliminating it is a no-brainer. http://www.sleep-journal.com/article/S1389-9457%2800%2900032-0/abstract?nl=nytnow&em_pos=large&emc=edit_nn_20150309 http://www.sleep-journal.com/article/S1389-9457%2800%2900032... https://www.gwern.net/docs/melatonin/1996-coren.pdf https://www.gwern.net/docs/melatonin/1996-coren.pdf https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/03/140329175108.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/03/140329175108.h... http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/apl/94/5/1305/?nl=nytnow&em_pos=large&emc=edit_nn_20150309 http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/apl/94/5/1305/?nl=nytnow&em_... ..and many more. You'll note a complete lack of sensationalist articles in the above links. Keeping DST amounts to self-flagellation. Much like the existence of the penny, it's a thing that has few legitimate reasons to exist and many more legitimate reasons to be burned to the ground.
- ghaff 9y agoI’m not sure why we ever moved off year-round DST as we used for a few years in the US. Yes it makes for dark winter mornings in the North. But, honestly, there’s not a lot of sunlight to spread around in Boston or Chicago in the middle of winter anyway.
- blang 9y agoI think the common complaint was it was too dark for school aged children waiting for the bus. I'm not saying this is a super valid complaint, it's just the common one.
- ForRealsies 9y agoHaving been a kid, it is a super valid complaint. It's no coincidence that Arizona doesn't follow DST. It doesn't get below freezing too often in Phoenix.
- waqf 9y agoI live in Boston (42°N) having grown up at 52°N, which may sound extreme to East-Coasters but is hardly exceptional by West-Coast or European standards. I can assure you there's plenty of sunlight here at midwinter, it's just poorly utilized.
- ghaff 9y agoFair enough. I do winter hiking and the like. It’s just hard to get much sunlight outside of a typical work day.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- gregmac 9y agoI was trying to find something to illustrate the practical implications of this, but couldn't find exactly what I wanted so came up with this: Toronto San Francisco Sunrise Sunset Sunrise Sunset June 21 (DST) 5:00~5:36 am 9:02~9:38 pm 5:16~5:48 am 8:34~9:06 pm December 21 7:15~7:47 am 4:43~5:16 pm 6:52~7:21 am 4:54~5:23 pm December 21 (DST) 8:15~8:47 am 5:43~6:16 pm 7:52~8:21 am 5:54~6:23 pm The ranges are for civil twilight [1] which is basically the time it's still bright enough to see outside. [1] https://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/civil-twilight.html https://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/civil-twilight.html
- ghaff 9y agoAnd the flip side is that, absent DST, sunrise would be at 4am on the summer solstice in Boston, rather than a marginally more civilized 5am with an extra hour of sunlight after normal work hours.
- AckSyn 9y ago> marginally more civilized. so go to bed "earlier" and wake up "earlier". Time is irrelevant as opposed to when the sun is actually up/down.
- hudibras 9y agoEvery six months, the same damn thinkpieces are written.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- ScipioAfricanus 9y agoIt's really not something I've ever found myself bothered by. I've only learned in the past few years that some people actually have a problem with it, to the point of calling it "madness" apparently. Really people? This seems to be more a symptom of complainers needing something to complain about and clickbait machines churning than anything else.
- skerit 9y agoYes. And people complaining about their kids not being able to adjust to it (kids grow up, they'll learn to live with it eventually ;)) I really hate when people complain that they get to sleep 1 hour less. The switch is always during the night of saturday to sunday, who cares?
- jedberg 9y agoSo far there are only a few comments here, but I am surprised to see they actually have differing opinions. I always thought everyone universally hated DST, especially programmers, but apparently that's not the case at all. I personally hate it because I'd rather be on DST year round so I get more sun in the winter afternoons.
- Lukeas14 9y agoThe majority of programmers should never be directly coding to account for DST but instead should be using libraries (JodaTime, moment.js) that abstract local time differences. There are just too many to keep track of. I'm glad I don't have to worry about code I wrote 5 years ago handling the end of DST in Florida.
- jedberg 9y agoAs an engineer I always use a library, or set up systems on Arizona time so I don't have to deal with it. But I often had to work with systems/software made by other people who made a lot of assumptions about dates.
- styfle 9y agoWhy Arizona time? Isn’t it easier to use UTC?
- jedberg 9y agoI live and work in California, so it's way easier in my head to subtract one hour during the few winter months we're on standard time, and then not have to do any math from March to October. UTC always requires a bunch of mental gymnastics to subtract 7 or 8.
- styfle 9y agoIt’s possible for Arizona to start using DST in the future. Indiana used to not observe DST until 10 or 15 years ago.
- mgkimsal 9y agoSwitch the clocks once, halfway from 11 to 10:30, and be done with it forever. :/
- kichuku 9y agoAll you people living in the US complaining about DST thinking only you have a problem with it. Well, guess what, you wouldn't have imagined a tiny fraction of people on the other end of the world too have a problem with it. When DST is in effect, engineers supporting US from India work from 5:30pm to 2:30am. When DST ends in November the guys have to work from 6:30pm to 3:30am. And this is just for east coast. Granted it is just one hour. But it does make a lot of difference when the travel back to home takes 1hr and by the time you are trying to fall asleep, the Sun is shining bright outside the window. And I have worked in this manner for 5 continuous years in continuous night shifts until I shifted recently to one of the (very few) companies who have day shift jobs in my area of specialization and simultaneously not having a shitty pay. I used to hate going to office between November to March, no matter how much I did like my job and the technology. And so I used to treasure those work-from-home days. Edit: Added formatting, correct error and added some context.
- masonic 9y agoengineers supporting US from It would be best to re-onshore such roles back to the USA and thereby spare you such annoyance in the future.
- danaliv 9y agoMeanwhile the aviation industry said "to hell with it" and doesn't even use time zones, let alone DST!
- joshfraser 9y agoWe decided the solution to specific problems (like kids waiting for the school bus in the dark), was to move the goal posts for everyone, instead of having specific institutions make their own seasonal adjustments to their schedules. Let's throw the whole system out and start over. 10 hours in a day and 100 minutes in an hour. :)
- british_india 9y agoAnother example of a straw-man argument. No liberal thinks we have unlimited money. But we do think that the wealthy gain tremendous advantages from the common payments by all citizens, advantages that the wealthy like to ignore exists. Remove the roads, public utilities, courts, police, fire, army and all the other things that the citizens all pool their money to pay for and let's see how easy it is for the wealthy to get or stay wealthy. If you own a factory, you are not going to make a lot of money if you personally have to pay for the roads, for the power and water companies, for a private army to protect you, etc. That's why we should have a progressive tax system, one where those who have worked hard to gain wealth have to pay back to the system. That concept of the progressive tax system has been understood as just and fair since the times of the ancient Greeks. Even Ben Franklin himself discussed in his Autobiography why he had fought (twice) in his life for a progressive tax system.