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I'm on the far left, and while I am comfortable with whatever the scientific consensus on intelligence is at the moment and how it develops in the future, I am

I'm on the far left, and while I am comfortable with whatever the scientific consensus on intelligence is at the moment and how it develops in the future, I am very recalcitrant about allowing that understanding into politics, policy or most discussions I want to have about anything. Looking towards the past on how (pseudo)science about intelligence has been leveraged to commit atrocities, and looking at the reasons why so many on the right really really really like bringing up IQ and whatnot, I'll pass. At best the conversation dissimulates the urge to justify hierarchies of dominance-- the same fucking reason why the right likes to bring up anything from biology. At worst you get enthusiastic eugenicists; meeting such people at, say, conferences or other programmer venues (i'm sure programmers skew both towards higher IQ and views that the strong should crush the weak) is like stepping on a cow pie. Not to mention, I know plenty of people who would score high on intelligence tests, perhaps much higher than I would. Some of them seem to leverage that intelligence to be far stupider than anyone dumber than them could manage (us programmers again...). The point being-- the gap between scientific research on intelligence and what it means for A) society, and B) my personal life is a chasm I have no reason to bridge.

golergka 9y ago
Couldn't a conservative say exactly the same about climate change research? How historically climate change research has been used to justify increasing government powers? What would you feel if someone said about climate change something like "I am very recalcitrant about allowing that understanding into politics, policy or most discussions I want to have about anything"?
- danharaj 9y ago
  Do you honestly, truly think this is a productive question? Yes, someone could make structurally the same post I did about any topic instead of intelligence research, even right down to the grammar. Turns out that completely changes the meaning of the post! The answer is that I think climate research has clear and obvious input into not just state policy but how we structure large scale human activity in general. So, I would think such a conservative was wrong, and perhaps an asshole too depending on how earnest they are. But you could have already guessed, so did I miss the point of your question?
  - mcguire 9y ago
    You are saying that there is a set of (hypothetically) true facts about the universe that you will not allow into not only state policy, by which I assume you mean fundamental societal decisions, but also general human behavior?
    - danharaj 9y ago
      Not categorically. Just in most circumstances with most people. This doesn't sound like it should be controversial? I don't care about the opinion of most people in most circumstances about software methodology either.
petra 9y ago
I don't get right's focus on hierarchies of dominance: even if those exist biologically and affect our neurology, can't we as a society decide to build ways to trancend them(positively), like many other societies did through history ? Isn't that what culture is all about ?
- Consultant32452 9y ago
  What societies have transcended dominance hierarchies?
  - petra 9y ago
    Often,but not always, Hunter gatherer societies are very egalitarian(one example is the Aborigines). And they built it intentionally, for example, by randomly swapping arrows before going hunting so the guy who made the kill wouldn't consider himself better. And if someone did, the group put him down.and for sure , the income equality was also important.
    - Consultant32452 9y ago
      When you're talking about these cohesive egalitarian groups of hunter-gatherers, how many people might be in any individual group? The context I'm asking in is that I would suspect this type of arrangement could be pretty effective up to Dunbar's Number. Once your "group" gets above Dunbar's Number (estimated 100-250) it would become increasingly difficult to function without hierarchical structures.
      - petra 9y ago
        This may be true. But we know that Scandinavia and Sweden are much less hierarchical than the US, and they function well as complex societies.
        Consultant32452 9y ago
        Scandinavian countries have virtually no racial or cultural diversity. For example, 97% of Finland's population is of Finnish or Swedish heritage. Over 70% of the Finnish population belongs to the Finnish national religion, Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland, and a portion of their taxes are handed over to the church. Finland has an immigration policy in-line with mainstream US Republican proposals such as being means-tested rather than a random lottery and it's not weighted towards diversity at all. Lastly, Scandinavian countries have equal or worse gender representation for careers like nursing and engineering. Scandinavia deserves plenty of credit for the legislative efforts they've made towards egalitarianism, but it's important we put our perception of them into context.
Consultant32452 9y ago
>I am very recalcitrant about allowing that understanding into politics, policy or most discussions I want to have about anything. The problem is that differential outcomes are used as a measurement of systemic bias. Well, you weren't willing to look at the differential inputs, so how could you possibly make claims about the differential outcomes?
haberman 9y ago
> The point being-- the gap between scientific research on intelligence and what it means for A) society, and B) my personal life is a chasm I have no reason to bridge. The problem is that well-meaning people on the left come to the table full of assumptions and intuitions about how reality works and what causes inequality, and base their policy positions on these. People on the right bring up biology because it can expose weaknesses in these assumptions and beliefs. > Looking towards the past on how (pseudo)science about intelligence has been leveraged to commit atrocities You can also look at how blank slatism and Lysenkoism were leveraged to commit atrocities in the USSR. Science and pseudo-science have been use to justify all kinds of horrible regimes. That isn't a license to ignore reality and form policy based on unfounded beliefs.
- danharaj 9y ago
  > That isn't a license to ignore reality and form policy based on unfounded beliefs. Did I say anything about unfounded beliefs? I didnt. I even said I accept research on intelligence. Not basing policy on X is not the same thing as basing policy on X. But I'll bite. Tell me a way that intelligence research should inform policy that isn't immediately morally repugnant.
  - FancyOrangutan 9y ago
    Some aspects of school/district curriculums that shouldn't/can't be tailored to individual ability should still be tailored to the general ability of the student body. In areas with rapidly shifting demographics, this data might help inform decision making. Obviously, in almost any conceivable case, there is plenty of other, sharper data that renders the race data unnecessary; but when the almost entirely Ashkenazi school becomes 75% African refugees and chooses to put on a less lexically complex play, this research will have constructively informed policy.
  - haberman 9y ago
    > Did I say anything about unfounded beliefs? I didnt. I even said I accept research on intelligence. I wasn't commenting on your personal beliefs. I was commenting on your position that certain true facts should not be spoken in a political context. To me, that is the same as saying that people should be free to make policy without being challenged if their beliefs are incorrect. > But I'll bite. Tell me a way that intelligence research should inform policy that isn't immediately morally repugnant. No Child Left Behind in the USA is (I think) widely regarded as a failed piece of legislation. It is based on the idea that the only reason kids don't succeed in school is because schools are failing them. It heavily penalized schools that can't get their achievement scores up. Intelligence research can provide one leg of a counterargument that kids are different in all kinds of ways, and proscriptively mandating equality of outcome makes for bad policy.
vixen99 9y ago
"i'm sure programmers skew both towards higher IQ and views that the strong should crush the weak". Well, that's settled that then! Nice to be sure.

golergka 9y ago

Couldn't a conservative say exactly the same about climate change research? How historically climate change research has been used to justify increasing government powers? What would you feel if someone said about climate change something like "I am very recalcitrant about allowing that understanding into politics, policy or most discussions I want to have about anything"?

danharaj 9y ago
Do you honestly, truly think this is a productive question? Yes, someone could make structurally the same post I did about any topic instead of intelligence research, even right down to the grammar. Turns out that completely changes the meaning of the post! The answer is that I think climate research has clear and obvious input into not just state policy but how we structure large scale human activity in general. So, I would think such a conservative was wrong, and perhaps an asshole too depending on how earnest they are. But you could have already guessed, so did I miss the point of your question?
- mcguire 9y ago
  You are saying that there is a set of (hypothetically) true facts about the universe that you will not allow into not only state policy, by which I assume you mean fundamental societal decisions, but also general human behavior?
  - danharaj 9y ago
    Not categorically. Just in most circumstances with most people. This doesn't sound like it should be controversial? I don't care about the opinion of most people in most circumstances about software methodology either.

petra 9y ago

I don't get right's focus on hierarchies of dominance: even if those exist biologically and affect our neurology, can't we as a society decide to build ways to trancend them(positively), like many other societies did through history ? Isn't that what culture is all about ?

Consultant32452 9y ago
What societies have transcended dominance hierarchies?
- petra 9y ago
  Often,but not always, Hunter gatherer societies are very egalitarian(one example is the Aborigines). And they built it intentionally, for example, by randomly swapping arrows before going hunting so the guy who made the kill wouldn't consider himself better. And if someone did, the group put him down.and for sure , the income equality was also important.
  - Consultant32452 9y ago
    When you're talking about these cohesive egalitarian groups of hunter-gatherers, how many people might be in any individual group? The context I'm asking in is that I would suspect this type of arrangement could be pretty effective up to Dunbar's Number. Once your "group" gets above Dunbar's Number (estimated 100-250) it would become increasingly difficult to function without hierarchical structures.
    - petra 9y ago
      This may be true. But we know that Scandinavia and Sweden are much less hierarchical than the US, and they function well as complex societies.
      - Consultant32452 9y ago
        Scandinavian countries have virtually no racial or cultural diversity. For example, 97% of Finland's population is of Finnish or Swedish heritage. Over 70% of the Finnish population belongs to the Finnish national religion, Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland, and a portion of their taxes are handed over to the church. Finland has an immigration policy in-line with mainstream US Republican proposals such as being means-tested rather than a random lottery and it's not weighted towards diversity at all. Lastly, Scandinavian countries have equal or worse gender representation for careers like nursing and engineering. Scandinavia deserves plenty of credit for the legislative efforts they've made towards egalitarianism, but it's important we put our perception of them into context.

Consultant32452 9y ago

>I am very recalcitrant about allowing that understanding into politics, policy or most discussions I want to have about anything. The problem is that differential outcomes are used as a measurement of systemic bias. Well, you weren't willing to look at the differential inputs, so how could you possibly make claims about the differential outcomes?

haberman 9y ago

> The point being-- the gap between scientific research on intelligence and what it means for A) society, and B) my personal life is a chasm I have no reason to bridge. The problem is that well-meaning people on the left come to the table full of assumptions and intuitions about how reality works and what causes inequality, and base their policy positions on these. People on the right bring up biology because it can expose weaknesses in these assumptions and beliefs. > Looking towards the past on how (pseudo)science about intelligence has been leveraged to commit atrocities You can also look at how blank slatism and Lysenkoism were leveraged to commit atrocities in the USSR. Science and pseudo-science have been use to justify all kinds of horrible regimes. That isn't a license to ignore reality and form policy based on unfounded beliefs.

danharaj 9y ago
> That isn't a license to ignore reality and form policy based on unfounded beliefs. Did I say anything about unfounded beliefs? I didnt. I even said I accept research on intelligence. Not basing policy on X is not the same thing as basing policy on X. But I'll bite. Tell me a way that intelligence research should inform policy that isn't immediately morally repugnant.
- FancyOrangutan 9y ago
  Some aspects of school/district curriculums that shouldn't/can't be tailored to individual ability should still be tailored to the general ability of the student body. In areas with rapidly shifting demographics, this data might help inform decision making. Obviously, in almost any conceivable case, there is plenty of other, sharper data that renders the race data unnecessary; but when the almost entirely Ashkenazi school becomes 75% African refugees and chooses to put on a less lexically complex play, this research will have constructively informed policy.
- haberman 9y ago
  > Did I say anything about unfounded beliefs? I didnt. I even said I accept research on intelligence. I wasn't commenting on your personal beliefs. I was commenting on your position that certain true facts should not be spoken in a political context. To me, that is the same as saying that people should be free to make policy without being challenged if their beliefs are incorrect. > But I'll bite. Tell me a way that intelligence research should inform policy that isn't immediately morally repugnant. No Child Left Behind in the USA is (I think) widely regarded as a failed piece of legislation. It is based on the idea that the only reason kids don't succeed in school is because schools are failing them. It heavily penalized schools that can't get their achievement scores up. Intelligence research can provide one leg of a counterargument that kids are different in all kinds of ways, and proscriptively mandating equality of outcome makes for bad policy.

vixen99 9y ago

"i'm sure programmers skew both towards higher IQ and views that the strong should crush the weak". Well, that's settled that then! Nice to be sure.