4 ms·

I believe (though am not sure) that the tweet is posed in the context of San Francisco Bay Area. The Sunset neighborhood, which is shown in subsequent pictures,

I believe (though am not sure) that the tweet is posed in the context of San Francisco Bay Area. The Sunset neighborhood, which is shown in subsequent pictures, is a neighborhood with remarkably lower density than the neighborhoods in SF that lie East of Stanyan. Likewise, the proposal to ensure that zoning is more permissive around mass transit stops (pushed by Weiner) is specifically attacking cities that have refused to increase zoning density despite the inflix of residents. I also do think bringing up this distinction is important. A conservative, landed gentry has controlled Bay Area cities and their zoning laws for decades now and are ferociously resisting a change to their ideas of normal. The article presents examples with how this gentry specifically casts the pro-urban Bloc, with a hammer and sickle flag, and hippie clothing, not to mention the minorities falling out of the buildings. Folks who made those images seem to explicitly see high density housing as not only an affront to the look of the neighborhood, but an afront on their values. To deny that this is a war between 2 different views of the way a city should behave culturally, and to explicitly ignore the anti-queer and anti-minority imagery, is to be both intellectually dishonest and inaccurate.

jeffreyrogers 9y ago
I don't know anything about San Francisco, so I can't comment on any anti-queer/anti-minority imagery. The article certainly didn't provide evidence for it. But is this really a liberal vs. conservative issue? I've heard Berkeley has similar NIMBYism, and that's a very liberal area, right? Is Sunset really that conservative?
- Karrot_Kream 9y ago
  You're right, the article didn't provide evidence for it, though it did add two pictures with anti-minority and anti-hippie imagery (without attribution). > But is this really a liberal vs. conservative issue? I wish I could provide you something more than this, but in my anecdotal experience as a minority in many ways, yes. I don't have the statistical evidence to agree or disagree though. > I've heard Berkeley has similar NIMBYism, and that's a very liberal area, right? Berkeley has less of it (again, in my anecdotal experience as a minority) than most other parts of the Bay. Most of Berkeley's NIMBYism seems to be confined to parts around North Berkeley. > Is Sunset really that conservative? From my time in the neighborhood, yes. It was older and more racially segregated than other parts of SF for sure. The neighborhood tended to be split into Chinese (mostly Cantonese) and white sections, and even when neighbors were of different races, most people stuck to a clique. Residents were also much older (older than my parents). Again though, this is just my anecdotal experience.
- danans 9y ago
  > The article certainly didn't provide evidence for it. But is this really a liberal vs. conservative issue? I've heard Berkeley has similar NIMBYism, and that's a very liberal area, right? Is Sunset really that conservative? Liberal/conservative on civil rights and social issues isn't the right model to use to understand the sides of this issue. It's more of an intergenerational conflict amplified by differences in wealth and income. In the Bay Area, the NIMBY contingent tends to skew to the older (i.e. baby boomer, early gen-X) generation, especially the more wealthy (in $ and property) among them. The YIMBY crowd skews to the younger generations (late gen-X to millenials), who sometimes have good incomes, but lack the wealth/capital to afford the local housing market as it is currently configured.
- adrianratnapala 9y ago
  > But is this really a liberal vs. conservative issue? I've heard Berkeley has similar NIMBYism ... Well if we take the words "conservative" and "liberal" literally, then a landed gentry trying to keep the status quo that advantages them is conservative almost by definition. While people wishing to permit other things are liberal -- at least on that issue. But whether that maps onto the American tribal labels of "conservative" and "liberal" is a different matter. As far as I know, Republicans and Democrats are both split on these issues.
politician 9y ago
"landed gentry" Come on now, let's at least use the right words. These folks are "homeowners", not the wealthy living off of rental properties. Used improperly, that term is exclusionary. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landed_gentry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landed_gentry
- Karrot_Kream 9y ago
  Merriam-Webster[1] says: "wealthy people who own land ". I didn't realize there was a specific UK definition to this term though, thanks! [1]: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/landed%20gentry https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/landed%20gentry
  - politician 9y ago
    After mulling over your response for a bit, I wanted to reach out and clarify that this term is not really "UK specific". Consider "knighthood", the British, as well as other countries granted knighthood to their subjects - "knight" is not "UK specific". That does not make "knight" universally applicable, however. For instance, one cannot become a knight of the United States of America. Likewise, "landed gentry" is a title granted to people under British, Polish, and Chinese systems in the past. It's debatable whether MWOD is guilty of playing a dangerous game of propaganda by peddling low quality definitions online with high SEO. They have an ethical obligation to not revise words out from under the population unless, of course, they are a non-neutral party with a particular agenda. It's not fair to people, like yourself, who want to advance strongly-felt arguments to spoil those arguments with terms based on these weak definitions just because they showed up high in Google Search results. As the terms our society uses to communicate continue to degrade into group-specific definitions, we will generally lose the ability to communicate effectively across groups; and, in turn, the ability to compromise and negotiate in good faith. In other words, one's political opponents might interpret a speech differently due to the use of a different dictionary rather than (merely) disagreement with a particular argument. To glimpse at one dystopian future, consider that the recent phenomenon of declaring one's personal pronouns might soon include identification of one's personal dictionary, one's personal thesaurus, one's personal collection of idioms, and one's personal grammar.

jeffreyrogers 9y ago

I don't know anything about San Francisco, so I can't comment on any anti-queer/anti-minority imagery. The article certainly didn't provide evidence for it. But is this really a liberal vs. conservative issue? I've heard Berkeley has similar NIMBYism, and that's a very liberal area, right? Is Sunset really that conservative?

Karrot_Kream 9y ago
You're right, the article didn't provide evidence for it, though it did add two pictures with anti-minority and anti-hippie imagery (without attribution). > But is this really a liberal vs. conservative issue? I wish I could provide you something more than this, but in my anecdotal experience as a minority in many ways, yes. I don't have the statistical evidence to agree or disagree though. > I've heard Berkeley has similar NIMBYism, and that's a very liberal area, right? Berkeley has less of it (again, in my anecdotal experience as a minority) than most other parts of the Bay. Most of Berkeley's NIMBYism seems to be confined to parts around North Berkeley. > Is Sunset really that conservative? From my time in the neighborhood, yes. It was older and more racially segregated than other parts of SF for sure. The neighborhood tended to be split into Chinese (mostly Cantonese) and white sections, and even when neighbors were of different races, most people stuck to a clique. Residents were also much older (older than my parents). Again though, this is just my anecdotal experience.
danans 9y ago
> The article certainly didn't provide evidence for it. But is this really a liberal vs. conservative issue? I've heard Berkeley has similar NIMBYism, and that's a very liberal area, right? Is Sunset really that conservative? Liberal/conservative on civil rights and social issues isn't the right model to use to understand the sides of this issue. It's more of an intergenerational conflict amplified by differences in wealth and income. In the Bay Area, the NIMBY contingent tends to skew to the older (i.e. baby boomer, early gen-X) generation, especially the more wealthy (in $ and property) among them. The YIMBY crowd skews to the younger generations (late gen-X to millenials), who sometimes have good incomes, but lack the wealth/capital to afford the local housing market as it is currently configured.
adrianratnapala 9y ago
> But is this really a liberal vs. conservative issue? I've heard Berkeley has similar NIMBYism ... Well if we take the words "conservative" and "liberal" literally, then a landed gentry trying to keep the status quo that advantages them is conservative almost by definition. While people wishing to permit other things are liberal -- at least on that issue. But whether that maps onto the American tribal labels of "conservative" and "liberal" is a different matter. As far as I know, Republicans and Democrats are both split on these issues.

politician 9y ago

"landed gentry" Come on now, let's at least use the right words. These folks are "homeowners", not the wealthy living off of rental properties. Used improperly, that term is exclusionary. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landed_gentry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landed_gentry

Karrot_Kream 9y ago
Merriam-Webster[1] says: "wealthy people who own land ". I didn't realize there was a specific UK definition to this term though, thanks! [1]: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/landed%20gentry https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/landed%20gentry
- politician 9y ago
  After mulling over your response for a bit, I wanted to reach out and clarify that this term is not really "UK specific". Consider "knighthood", the British, as well as other countries granted knighthood to their subjects - "knight" is not "UK specific". That does not make "knight" universally applicable, however. For instance, one cannot become a knight of the United States of America. Likewise, "landed gentry" is a title granted to people under British, Polish, and Chinese systems in the past. It's debatable whether MWOD is guilty of playing a dangerous game of propaganda by peddling low quality definitions online with high SEO. They have an ethical obligation to not revise words out from under the population unless, of course, they are a non-neutral party with a particular agenda. It's not fair to people, like yourself, who want to advance strongly-felt arguments to spoil those arguments with terms based on these weak definitions just because they showed up high in Google Search results. As the terms our society uses to communicate continue to degrade into group-specific definitions, we will generally lose the ability to communicate effectively across groups; and, in turn, the ability to compromise and negotiate in good faith. In other words, one's political opponents might interpret a speech differently due to the use of a different dictionary rather than (merely) disagreement with a particular argument. To glimpse at one dystopian future, consider that the recent phenomenon of declaring one's personal pronouns might soon include identification of one's personal dictionary, one's personal thesaurus, one's personal collection of idioms, and one's personal grammar.