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So, this is pretty much everything the HN crowd was asking for, right? Pull AMP apart into a bunch of web standards and switch Google search to promote any cont

So, this is pretty much everything the HN crowd was asking for, right? Pull AMP apart into a bunch of web standards and switch Google search to promote any content which follows those standards rather than AMP content specifically? Why are all the top comments so negative?

xab9 9y ago
Probably because AMP should not have existed in the first place :) We already have everything we need to make fast and performant pages - we can't do it, because of marketing and trackers and spying and shit though: not technological factors, but human factors.
- Ajedi32 9y ago
  And yet, AMP has succeeded at getting publishers to deliver fast and performant pages where other efforts did not. I dispute the idea that technological factors are not at play here. AMP's preloading and automatic CDN caching system have a pretty big impact on load times, and its technically-enforced restrictions on what sort of performance-impacting content publishers are allowed to include in their pages seems to do a pretty good job of ensuring pages do not become bloated.
  - ocdtrekkie 9y ago
    The fact that Google Search is a monopoly is not a technological factor. Google gives preference to AMP sites on Google Search, therefore publishers must implement AMP. I actually have a lot less issue with AMP as a technological solution, as I do with the Google's "our way or the highway" treatment of the Internet. Google uses both it's search monopoly and it's browser monopoly (and often, both at the same time) to force the entire world to do whatever Google wants them to. Sometimes you might perceive the result to be "good", but that doesn't justify the behavior. That's why another technical implementation change blog doesn't improve anyone's mood about the whole thing: Because Malte Ubl is still pretending he's on #teamweb and not #teamgoogle.
    - Ajedi32 9y ago
      Fair point, but that problem (at least as far as AMP is concerned) is exactly the one this blog post is addressing: Google is planning to stop pushing AMP specifically in its search results and instead push a set of open web standards which achieve the same technical goals.
      - beokop 9y ago
        Even so, I’m tired of jumping through hoops to adhere to bullshit standards that make life hard without any actual benefit. We have HTML and CSS, why do we need AMP? How does my personal webpage benefit from HTTPS? Why did they enforce mandatory HTTPS across the entire .dev TLD in WebKit, breaking my local test env, when it’s only used by a few internal projects at Google? They seem to have a vested interest in making web development harder than it needs to be.
        agentdrtran 9y ago
        > We have HTML and CSS, why do we need AMP? Do you even know what AMP is?
        beokop 9y ago
        Poor phrasing on my part. I meant that fast websites can already be built without adhering to the AMP standard.
        TheCoelacanth 9y ago
        > How does my personal webpage benefit from HTTPS? It prevents bad actors like ISPs or public WiFi APs from injecting bullshit into it.
    - themacguffinman 9y ago
      You're really missing the broader context here, which was the rise of wholly proprietary news formats like Facebook Articles and Apple News. This was Google's entry into the market that was very much #teamweb vs Facebook and Apple's #teamproprietary because it based itself on open web standards and had a clear pathway towards standardization (that you see materializing in the OP's article). This was the best solution the web could hope for that balanced open standard concerns with the necessary commercial backing that advantaged AMP's proprietary competitors.
  - xab9 9y ago
    Publishers are in a deep shit, print numbers are dwindling, their pure existence depends on facebook and google whom are trying to suck them dry. It's not a simbiosis, it's parasitic relationship even though the hosts may try to pretend it is not.
  - dmitriid 9y ago
    - Open Chrome - Open Chrome Dev Tools - Switch to mobile view (to force chrome open AMP pages) - Search in Google - Open an AMP page - Force refresh to force reload from cold cache I've yet to find a page below 1 MB. I've routinely seen pages anywhere from 2 to 4 MB. So much for "slimmed down performant webpages". The only reason they are "performant" is Google preloading them while you search
    - xab9 9y ago
      Yes, the preloading is a dirty trick. Google has the power to play dirty and noone dares to slap him in the face anymore. Don't be evil -> do the right thing -> do what's right for Google.
    - Ajedi32 9y ago
      Check out the non-amp versions of those pages though. First example I got (via searching Google for "news" and clicking the first AMP link). AMP: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sfgate.com/crime/amp/Active-shooter-reported-at-Yountville-veterans-12741622.php https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sfgate.com/crime/amp/Active... (2.4 MB, loaded in 760ms) Non-AMP: https://m.sfgate.com/crime/article/Active-shooter-reported-at-Yountville-veterans-12741622.php https://m.sfgate.com/crime/article/Active-shooter-reported-a... (4.7 MB, loaded in 7 seconds) The non-AMP page is twice as big and takes an order of magnitude longer to load. So, yes. I would _absolutely_ describe the AMP version as a "slimmed down performant webpage". Could it be better? Of course! But users are still _much_ better off with AMP than without, at least in terms of performance. (And that's ignoring the fact that preloading is part of AMP. It's not "cheating" if it works in a real-world situation.)
      - dmitriid 9y ago
        My personal non-AMP page weighs ~800 KB (including all images and JS). It still has no chance in hell competing against a 2.4 MB AMP page because I don't have Google's CDN. Even if I follow all of Google's own performance guidelines, it won't help, as AMP pages load faster than text-only http://motherfuckingwebsite.com http://motherfuckingwebsite.com > It's not "cheating" if it works in a real-world situation. No. It's still cheating. Even if it works
- Kalium 9y ago
  You're absolutely right. Everything we need, in a strictly technical sense, to make wonderfully fast and performant web pages already exists. And has accomplished little, because as you say it's a human problem. AMP exists because Google figured out a way to make non-technical humans want to be fast and performant. It's a nice carrot to offer people who normally don't care at all about performance.
tyingq 9y ago
“Why are all the top comments so negative?” Google could still be planning to keep the top banner, the left/right swipe to your competitor functionally for carousels, etc. That top banner, for example, has an [x] button that end users expect to dismiss the banner and stay on the page. Instead, it goes back to Google. The negativity is because they aren’t being explicit as to what is actually being delivered. They are still retaining the right to run their own arbitrary JS on YOUR site, which could do almost anything they want. TLDR: too soon to tell how genuine the message is, and Google isn’t working very hard to clear it up.
- Ajedi32 9y ago
  In that case I'd suggest that perhaps they just aren't understanding exactly what's being announced here. Eliminating the top banner was something AMP announced they were going to do _months_ ago, just as soon as they could do so without negatively impacting performance: https://amphtml.wordpress.com/2018/01/09/improving-urls-for-amp-pages/ https://amphtml.wordpress.com/2018/01/09/improving-urls-for-... And AMP having "the right to run their own arbitrary JS on YOUR site" is not something that can happen when you're not even being required to use AMP in the first place: > we now feel ready to take the next step and work to support more instant-loading content not based on AMP technology [emphasis mine]
  - tyingq 9y ago
    Can you quote something specific that says either the top banner or carousel takeover UI goes away? To me, it seems very high level and opaque. They could have been very specific, but haven’t been. Web packaging does still require including a named google js url, right? With little restrictions on what it’s able to do with the DOM. Why, for example, is there no Google source saying that the AMP page header is going away? They have not yet specified if they will only allow a very specific implementation of web packaging that allows your site into the carousel and other top of page search result URLs.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
smacktoward 9y ago
Probably because the actual message is buried under a mountain of self-serving, AMP-praising buzzwords ("user-first," "well-lit," etc.). The post spends so much time patting AMP on the back that it's easy to miss the point that it's actually announcing Google's retreat from AMP. If they'd taken the same message and presented it as "we hear you: forcing you to reformat your web site using our own format sucks, and tying your search visibility to your adoption of that format sucks even harder, so we've decided to stop doing both those things," fewer people would have missed the point.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
Twirrim 9y ago
I managed to completely miss the point in the post. So much bloviating I switched off before I got half way through, and I'm someone who loves reading and routinely reads long blog posts.

xab9 9y ago

Probably because AMP should not have existed in the first place :) We already have everything we need to make fast and performant pages - we can't do it, because of marketing and trackers and spying and shit though: not technological factors, but human factors.

Ajedi32 9y ago
And yet, AMP has succeeded at getting publishers to deliver fast and performant pages where other efforts did not. I dispute the idea that technological factors are not at play here. AMP's preloading and automatic CDN caching system have a pretty big impact on load times, and its technically-enforced restrictions on what sort of performance-impacting content publishers are allowed to include in their pages seems to do a pretty good job of ensuring pages do not become bloated.
- ocdtrekkie 9y ago
  The fact that Google Search is a monopoly is not a technological factor. Google gives preference to AMP sites on Google Search, therefore publishers must implement AMP. I actually have a lot less issue with AMP as a technological solution, as I do with the Google's "our way or the highway" treatment of the Internet. Google uses both it's search monopoly and it's browser monopoly (and often, both at the same time) to force the entire world to do whatever Google wants them to. Sometimes you might perceive the result to be "good", but that doesn't justify the behavior. That's why another technical implementation change blog doesn't improve anyone's mood about the whole thing: Because Malte Ubl is still pretending he's on #teamweb and not #teamgoogle.
  - Ajedi32 9y ago
    Fair point, but that problem (at least as far as AMP is concerned) is exactly the one this blog post is addressing: Google is planning to stop pushing AMP specifically in its search results and instead push a set of open web standards which achieve the same technical goals.
    - beokop 9y ago
      Even so, I’m tired of jumping through hoops to adhere to bullshit standards that make life hard without any actual benefit. We have HTML and CSS, why do we need AMP? How does my personal webpage benefit from HTTPS? Why did they enforce mandatory HTTPS across the entire .dev TLD in WebKit, breaking my local test env, when it’s only used by a few internal projects at Google? They seem to have a vested interest in making web development harder than it needs to be.
      - agentdrtran 9y ago
        > We have HTML and CSS, why do we need AMP? Do you even know what AMP is?
        beokop 9y ago
        Poor phrasing on my part. I meant that fast websites can already be built without adhering to the AMP standard.
      - TheCoelacanth 9y ago
        > How does my personal webpage benefit from HTTPS? It prevents bad actors like ISPs or public WiFi APs from injecting bullshit into it.
  - themacguffinman 9y ago
    You're really missing the broader context here, which was the rise of wholly proprietary news formats like Facebook Articles and Apple News. This was Google's entry into the market that was very much #teamweb vs Facebook and Apple's #teamproprietary because it based itself on open web standards and had a clear pathway towards standardization (that you see materializing in the OP's article). This was the best solution the web could hope for that balanced open standard concerns with the necessary commercial backing that advantaged AMP's proprietary competitors.
- xab9 9y ago
  Publishers are in a deep shit, print numbers are dwindling, their pure existence depends on facebook and google whom are trying to suck them dry. It's not a simbiosis, it's parasitic relationship even though the hosts may try to pretend it is not.
- dmitriid 9y ago
  - Open Chrome - Open Chrome Dev Tools - Switch to mobile view (to force chrome open AMP pages) - Search in Google - Open an AMP page - Force refresh to force reload from cold cache I've yet to find a page below 1 MB. I've routinely seen pages anywhere from 2 to 4 MB. So much for "slimmed down performant webpages". The only reason they are "performant" is Google preloading them while you search
  - xab9 9y ago
    Yes, the preloading is a dirty trick. Google has the power to play dirty and noone dares to slap him in the face anymore. Don't be evil -> do the right thing -> do what's right for Google.
  - Ajedi32 9y ago
    Check out the non-amp versions of those pages though. First example I got (via searching Google for "news" and clicking the first AMP link). AMP: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sfgate.com/crime/amp/Active-shooter-reported-at-Yountville-veterans-12741622.php https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sfgate.com/crime/amp/Active... (2.4 MB, loaded in 760ms) Non-AMP: https://m.sfgate.com/crime/article/Active-shooter-reported-at-Yountville-veterans-12741622.php https://m.sfgate.com/crime/article/Active-shooter-reported-a... (4.7 MB, loaded in 7 seconds) The non-AMP page is twice as big and takes an order of magnitude longer to load. So, yes. I would _absolutely_ describe the AMP version as a "slimmed down performant webpage". Could it be better? Of course! But users are still _much_ better off with AMP than without, at least in terms of performance. (And that's ignoring the fact that preloading is part of AMP. It's not "cheating" if it works in a real-world situation.)
    - dmitriid 9y ago
      My personal non-AMP page weighs ~800 KB (including all images and JS). It still has no chance in hell competing against a 2.4 MB AMP page because I don't have Google's CDN. Even if I follow all of Google's own performance guidelines, it won't help, as AMP pages load faster than text-only http://motherfuckingwebsite.com http://motherfuckingwebsite.com > It's not "cheating" if it works in a real-world situation. No. It's still cheating. Even if it works
Kalium 9y ago
You're absolutely right. Everything we need, in a strictly technical sense, to make wonderfully fast and performant web pages already exists. And has accomplished little, because as you say it's a human problem. AMP exists because Google figured out a way to make non-technical humans want to be fast and performant. It's a nice carrot to offer people who normally don't care at all about performance.

tyingq 9y ago

“Why are all the top comments so negative?” Google could still be planning to keep the top banner, the left/right swipe to your competitor functionally for carousels, etc. That top banner, for example, has an [x] button that end users expect to dismiss the banner and stay on the page. Instead, it goes back to Google. The negativity is because they aren’t being explicit as to what is actually being delivered. They are still retaining the right to run their own arbitrary JS on YOUR site, which could do almost anything they want. TLDR: too soon to tell how genuine the message is, and Google isn’t working very hard to clear it up.

Ajedi32 9y ago
In that case I'd suggest that perhaps they just aren't understanding exactly what's being announced here. Eliminating the top banner was something AMP announced they were going to do _months_ ago, just as soon as they could do so without negatively impacting performance: https://amphtml.wordpress.com/2018/01/09/improving-urls-for-amp-pages/ https://amphtml.wordpress.com/2018/01/09/improving-urls-for-... And AMP having "the right to run their own arbitrary JS on YOUR site" is not something that can happen when you're not even being required to use AMP in the first place: > we now feel ready to take the next step and work to support more instant-loading content not based on AMP technology [emphasis mine]
- tyingq 9y ago
  Can you quote something specific that says either the top banner or carousel takeover UI goes away? To me, it seems very high level and opaque. They could have been very specific, but haven’t been. Web packaging does still require including a named google js url, right? With little restrictions on what it’s able to do with the DOM. Why, for example, is there no Google source saying that the AMP page header is going away? They have not yet specified if they will only allow a very specific implementation of web packaging that allows your site into the carousel and other top of page search result URLs.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

smacktoward 9y ago

Probably because the actual message is buried under a mountain of self-serving, AMP-praising buzzwords ("user-first," "well-lit," etc.). The post spends so much time patting AMP on the back that it's easy to miss the point that it's actually announcing Google's retreat from AMP. If they'd taken the same message and presented it as "we hear you: forcing you to reformat your web site using our own format sucks, and tying your search visibility to your adoption of that format sucks even harder, so we've decided to stop doing both those things," fewer people would have missed the point.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

Twirrim 9y ago

I managed to completely miss the point in the post. So much bloviating I switched off before I got half way through, and I'm someone who loves reading and routinely reads long blog posts.