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I don't doubt the benefits enumerated in the article are true but I still think we as a society need to be better at respecting boundaries set by others. Long

I don't doubt the benefits enumerated in the article are true but I still think we as a society need to be better at respecting boundaries set by others. Long ago I had a co-worker who would slap me on the back in an "attaboy" sort of way. Firm and solid, but not physically damaging. I politely asked him to stop and he gave me two more whacks in reply, saying "You big kidder, you're always joking around." and continued his behavior until he left for another job. It's not difficult to do better than the person from my story. Then I see articles (similar to this one, but this is better than most I've seen) that take this to a strawman extreme and invalidate the very real phenomenon that we're collectively still pretty terrible at respecting the boundaries of others. The worst articles are the ones taking the childish position of "Well, if I can't wish someone a nice day without worrying about sexual harassment then I just won't say anything at all! So there!" which minimizes and ignores the actual issue and takes a certain pride in refusing to improve or grow.

badosu 9y ago
> Long ago I had a co-worker who would slap me on the back in an "attaboy" sort of way. Firm and solid, but not physically damaging. I politely asked him to stop and he gave me two more whacks in reply, saying "You big kidder, you're always joking around." and continued his behavior until he left for another job. Not to say what you should do, but saying: that is pretty disrespectful and you should have stood your ground, if you can't deal with a simple situation like this you won't learn how to deal with more difficult and subtler ones. Verbal communication can be much more insidious and harmful, getting rid of physical touch will not mitigate harassment on the workplace, just cripple good old human behaviour and move the bad parts somewhere else. As a native from Brazil I cannot imagine feeling comfortable at a workplace where normal behaviour must be monitored.
- minikites 9y ago
  >if you can't deal with a simple situation like this you won't learn how to deal with more difficult and subtler ones So it's my fault and I deserved it? It was my first "adult" job and lots of people put up with a lot more in order to keep their job. Have you only ever worked in positions of privilege? Can you not see the power dynamics in play here?
  - Y_Y 9y ago
    Maybe assigning a "fault" is a bad way to model this. GP was trying to give advice that you can take or leave, but in their estimation you could have had a better outcome by following the advice. Do you deserve it if you might have been able to stop it but didn't try? I'd say such a "deserving" isn't a useful concept in this instance. I try to just think about making a judgement on what action will turn out best, and not prevent myself doing so because of what it might "mean".
    - gowld 9y ago
      minikites explicitly explained that they did try. Stop blaming the victim of mistreatment for their mistreatment.
      - badosu 9y ago
        I did not blame anyone, just gave advice to be more firm on your social boundaries. As someone who was mistreated many times in the start of my career this is the advice I wish I had heard.
      - Y_Y 9y ago
        Is that comment addressed to me? I don't think I've blamed anyone for anything, and furthermore I don't see how you could think so. Why would I want to? In the hopes of getting back on topic, I think that the more isolating society gets, the more unpleasant that people are comfortable with being to one another, and that produces a negative feedback loop. We've all seen it in online discussion, but I think there's definitely a meatspace analogue.
  - badosu 9y ago
    > So it's my fault and I deserved it? I am not saying that, I am saying that you should demand respect from others, this helps you respect yourself.
sp332 9y ago
Yeah, I really agree with the negative example they used, that children shouldn't be forced to hug anyone they don't want to hug.
- sandos 9y ago
  Our kids can go a long time between seeing their grandparents, and we never forced them to hug them or anything. My dad though, he often forced a hug out of them 10 seconds after us coming in the door, and then got pissed when they started crying. Just waiting half an hour often made our kids less shy and amenable to hugging, but that seems to be hard to understand.
watwut 9y ago
That men was rude. > The worst articles are the ones taking the childish position of "Well, if I can't wish someone a nice day without worrying about sexual harassment then I just won't say anything at all! So there!" Well, then just don't is always my reaction. It is always written as if they were about to punish the world in sort of passive aggressive way. And the world meanwhile don't care.
wccrawford 9y ago
You are getting downvoted and I can't figure out why. You were absolutely right to ask that he not touch you. You were absolutely also in your rights to just put up with it rather than deal with the potential consequences of trying harder to stop it. My story: I worked at a place with a guy who I didn't particularly like, but I didn't really dislike him, either. One St Patrick's Day, I wasn't wearing green, and told people I don't like being pinched and not to pinch me. One person did it anyhow. Out of reflex, I raised my fist as if to punch him. I didn't actually punch him, but my instinct was to do so after having been bullied as a child. I went to the general manager and reported the incident. I was told that what he did wasn't wrong at all, and that if I'd punched him, I'd have been fired. I stood my ground. I looked him square in the eye and told him that it was assault. The manager insisted that it wasn't assault, and I kept stating that it was assault, and that I'd just finished telling him not to do it when he did it. After going around a few times, the manager finally stopped saying it wasn't assault. That incident never happened again. However, now the other employee was sure that I didn't like him, and things were tense between us for a year or 2. The story does have a happy ending, though. Eventually, that employee came out as gay and told everyone. Apparently, he thought I would react badly to that and looked particularly worried about what I'd say or do. I was just like, "Alright." and nothing was different on my side. However, he was much nicer to me after that, and so we both treated each other better from then on out. That's a long way to say that "people are complex" and "it's okay to deal with the situation how you did". Taking the harder path was indeed harder for me on an on-going basis, even though I didn't end up fired or anything.
- dec0dedab0de 9y ago
  I had to google the pinching on st. patricks day thing. That is a strange tradition I am glad I never heard of. You would have been right to punch them.
  - JBlue42 9y ago
    It's something that would happen in elementary or middle school but by the time I entered high school (late 90s) was definitely seen as not a cool thing. Can't imagine that in a workplace.

badosu 9y ago

> Long ago I had a co-worker who would slap me on the back in an "attaboy" sort of way. Firm and solid, but not physically damaging. I politely asked him to stop and he gave me two more whacks in reply, saying "You big kidder, you're always joking around." and continued his behavior until he left for another job. Not to say what you should do, but saying: that is pretty disrespectful and you should have stood your ground, if you can't deal with a simple situation like this you won't learn how to deal with more difficult and subtler ones. Verbal communication can be much more insidious and harmful, getting rid of physical touch will not mitigate harassment on the workplace, just cripple good old human behaviour and move the bad parts somewhere else. As a native from Brazil I cannot imagine feeling comfortable at a workplace where normal behaviour must be monitored.

minikites 9y ago
>if you can't deal with a simple situation like this you won't learn how to deal with more difficult and subtler ones So it's my fault and I deserved it? It was my first "adult" job and lots of people put up with a lot more in order to keep their job. Have you only ever worked in positions of privilege? Can you not see the power dynamics in play here?
- Y_Y 9y ago
  Maybe assigning a "fault" is a bad way to model this. GP was trying to give advice that you can take or leave, but in their estimation you could have had a better outcome by following the advice. Do you deserve it if you might have been able to stop it but didn't try? I'd say such a "deserving" isn't a useful concept in this instance. I try to just think about making a judgement on what action will turn out best, and not prevent myself doing so because of what it might "mean".
  - gowld 9y ago
    minikites explicitly explained that they did try. Stop blaming the victim of mistreatment for their mistreatment.
    - badosu 9y ago
      I did not blame anyone, just gave advice to be more firm on your social boundaries. As someone who was mistreated many times in the start of my career this is the advice I wish I had heard.
    - Y_Y 9y ago
      Is that comment addressed to me? I don't think I've blamed anyone for anything, and furthermore I don't see how you could think so. Why would I want to? In the hopes of getting back on topic, I think that the more isolating society gets, the more unpleasant that people are comfortable with being to one another, and that produces a negative feedback loop. We've all seen it in online discussion, but I think there's definitely a meatspace analogue.
- badosu 9y ago
  > So it's my fault and I deserved it? I am not saying that, I am saying that you should demand respect from others, this helps you respect yourself.

sp332 9y ago

Yeah, I really agree with the negative example they used, that children shouldn't be forced to hug anyone they don't want to hug.

sandos 9y ago
Our kids can go a long time between seeing their grandparents, and we never forced them to hug them or anything. My dad though, he often forced a hug out of them 10 seconds after us coming in the door, and then got pissed when they started crying. Just waiting half an hour often made our kids less shy and amenable to hugging, but that seems to be hard to understand.

watwut 9y ago

That men was rude. > The worst articles are the ones taking the childish position of "Well, if I can't wish someone a nice day without worrying about sexual harassment then I just won't say anything at all! So there!" Well, then just don't is always my reaction. It is always written as if they were about to punish the world in sort of passive aggressive way. And the world meanwhile don't care.

wccrawford 9y ago

You are getting downvoted and I can't figure out why. You were absolutely right to ask that he not touch you. You were absolutely also in your rights to just put up with it rather than deal with the potential consequences of trying harder to stop it. My story: I worked at a place with a guy who I didn't particularly like, but I didn't really dislike him, either. One St Patrick's Day, I wasn't wearing green, and told people I don't like being pinched and not to pinch me. One person did it anyhow. Out of reflex, I raised my fist as if to punch him. I didn't actually punch him, but my instinct was to do so after having been bullied as a child. I went to the general manager and reported the incident. I was told that what he did wasn't wrong at all, and that if I'd punched him, I'd have been fired. I stood my ground. I looked him square in the eye and told him that it was assault. The manager insisted that it wasn't assault, and I kept stating that it was assault, and that I'd just finished telling him not to do it when he did it. After going around a few times, the manager finally stopped saying it wasn't assault. That incident never happened again. However, now the other employee was sure that I didn't like him, and things were tense between us for a year or 2. The story does have a happy ending, though. Eventually, that employee came out as gay and told everyone. Apparently, he thought I would react badly to that and looked particularly worried about what I'd say or do. I was just like, "Alright." and nothing was different on my side. However, he was much nicer to me after that, and so we both treated each other better from then on out. That's a long way to say that "people are complex" and "it's okay to deal with the situation how you did". Taking the harder path was indeed harder for me on an on-going basis, even though I didn't end up fired or anything.

dec0dedab0de 9y ago
I had to google the pinching on st. patricks day thing. That is a strange tradition I am glad I never heard of. You would have been right to punch them.
- JBlue42 9y ago
  It's something that would happen in elementary or middle school but by the time I entered high school (late 90s) was definitely seen as not a cool thing. Can't imagine that in a workplace.