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True! But someone who learns to play the guitar, or a language at 8 ~ 15 years old shows skills that are very difficult to master (if not impossible) when you a

True! But someone who learns to play the guitar, or a language at 8 ~ 15 years old shows skills that are very difficult to master (if not impossible) when you are older. There's a lot of evidence of this if you talk with guitar teachers, someone who moved and start speaking a different language when adult, etc...

StavrosK 9y ago
Can you point to any studies? I don't know if this is because our brains get less plastic, or because we just stop bothering when we get older. I have personally noticed some drop in language acquisition skills, but I'm learning Spanish at 35 and I wouldn't say it's significantly harder than learning English at 12 (apart from the fact that English is everywhere around me all the time, but Spanish is very hard to come by).
- heldrida 9y ago
  I've got Japanese friends who live in the UK for more than 10 years now, and it's more Engrish then English, than anything else. My english sucks by the way. Maybe this will help you? http://www.jneurosci.org/content/36/3/755 http://www.jneurosci.org/content/36/3/755 http://pandora.cii.wwu.edu/vajda/ling201/test4materials/secondlangacquisition.htm http://pandora.cii.wwu.edu/vajda/ling201/test4materials/seco... https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120328172212.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120328172212.h... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0093934X03000671 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0093934X0... https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=5vvY2BDWZjEC&pg=PA251&dq=Musical+Performance:+Expression+and+the+Development+of+Excellence&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjqo4m2jN3ZAhVhLMAKHQ-eBhEQ6AEILjAB#v=onepage&q=Musical%20Performance%3A%20Expression%20and%20the%20Development%20of%20Excellence&f=false https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=5vvY2BDWZjEC&pg=PA251&dq... https://www.justinguitar.com/en/BC-101-CommonQuestions.php https://www.justinguitar.com/en/BC-101-CommonQuestions.php
  - StavrosK 9y ago
    Hmm, I don't see anything in there related to skill acquisition in younger vs older people, I'm afraid. Most of the links are about skill acquisition in general, and how the brain changes. One is to a Google book that won't show the page (I don't know why, it says the page is unavailable), and the last link is a teacher saying he guesses children learn more quickly because they're more plastic (but I guess they learn faster because they have more free time/willingness to practice)...
    - heldrida 9y ago
      Children are blank canvas, adults have habits; repetition makes it great but it also perpetuates habits. To achieve mastery in some areas you'd have to be born again. Pinker's The Language Instict. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Language_Instinct https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Language_Instinct https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2947444/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2947444/ Noam Chomsky, the world's most popular linguistic https://study.com/academy/lesson/noam-chomsky-on-language-theories-lesson-quiz.html https://study.com/academy/lesson/noam-chomsky-on-language-th...
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
sireat 9y ago
Same goes for chess. 15 is already considered very late to start serious study in chess. You simply do not develop the unconscious mastery the blink like ability to play a good move instantly. It is not the lack of time in older players either. Tales abound of players of independent means dedicating themselves to chess and getting nowhere near master level. By reverse, no chess player started at 25 and made Grandmaster. A huge outlier is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_K._Shaw https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_K._Shaw who was a club level player at 19.
- cepth 9y ago
  I’m not sure these claims are entirely true. Quick search turns up this list: https://www.quora.com/Is-there-any-famous-chess-player-or-grandmaster-who-started-late-like-in-their-20s-or-30s https://www.quora.com/Is-there-any-famous-chess-player-or-gr... Chigorin is from a different era, but he didn’t begin playing “seriously” until 24, and was a 2 time world championship challenger. Getting to master (2200 rating) level play is ultimately just an investment of time and money. For better or worse, the “consensus” is that master level play is not due to some kind of innate ability. Drilling the pattern recognition inherent in all phases of play is the key determinant for reaching ~2200 rating. Do a cursory Google search, and you’ll turn up hundreds of threads about this topic. Becoming an international master (IM) or grandmaster (GM) requires navigating FIDE’s, the world’s chess governing body’s, arcane rules around norms, or results, for the GM or IM title. I’m by no means an expert on the scientific piece of this, but I’d posit that the number of adults who have the financial means and time to travel across the United States or world to find tournaments that will earn them a norm is negligible. When you’re young and your parents are paying the bills, chess can seem fun and rewarding. When it’s you personally who is paying the bills for tournament registration, hotels, and planes, it’s a lot less fun.
  - sireat 9y ago
    Alas that Quora tread is full of questionable answers as Quora threads tend to do. My bias: I am a FIDE master who skipped chess study for a year when I was a teenager. (insert Brando quote from On the Waterfront here). Notice that the main examples that would disprove my premise are from 19th century. You'd need chess historian Winters to sort the claims but Chigorin's "seriously" is something to debate. Why aren't modern influx of adult players making masters? Plenty of adults playing in tournaments all around the world spending thousands on travel and equipment and training. Most of us are having fun but the improvement is not there. Also GM Klovans was a master level player in his teens and GM strength player as a young adult. Source: knew him personally and cherish the only draw I had against him. The few modern day examples started in late teeens and fit within my narrative. If there is a "consensus" that becoming a master does not require some innate ability then where are those masters? Show me a master level player who started at age 30. The chess.com megathread on this topic came up with an expert who achieved his title after starting at age 30 and that really is an outstanding accomplishment and a huge outlier. If "consensus" is correct there should be more numerous examples. Pretty much all adult players have hit a serious wall this you can see by looking at rating charts. The only exceptions are returnees who dedicate themselves to chess full time and even then the gains are miniscule 50-100 rating points at best and then they hit the wall and that's that. Thus I take serious issue with your presumption that "Getting to master (2200 rating) level play is ultimately just an investment of time and money." My thesis that chess skill/rating = talent * early start * dedicated study . You need all 3, if one is missing your chess skill will be seriously hampered.

StavrosK 9y ago

Can you point to any studies? I don't know if this is because our brains get less plastic, or because we just stop bothering when we get older. I have personally noticed some drop in language acquisition skills, but I'm learning Spanish at 35 and I wouldn't say it's significantly harder than learning English at 12 (apart from the fact that English is everywhere around me all the time, but Spanish is very hard to come by).

heldrida 9y ago
I've got Japanese friends who live in the UK for more than 10 years now, and it's more Engrish then English, than anything else. My english sucks by the way. Maybe this will help you? http://www.jneurosci.org/content/36/3/755 http://www.jneurosci.org/content/36/3/755 http://pandora.cii.wwu.edu/vajda/ling201/test4materials/secondlangacquisition.htm http://pandora.cii.wwu.edu/vajda/ling201/test4materials/seco... https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120328172212.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120328172212.h... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0093934X03000671 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0093934X0... https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=5vvY2BDWZjEC&pg=PA251&dq=Musical+Performance:+Expression+and+the+Development+of+Excellence&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjqo4m2jN3ZAhVhLMAKHQ-eBhEQ6AEILjAB#v=onepage&q=Musical%20Performance%3A%20Expression%20and%20the%20Development%20of%20Excellence&f=false https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=5vvY2BDWZjEC&pg=PA251&dq... https://www.justinguitar.com/en/BC-101-CommonQuestions.php https://www.justinguitar.com/en/BC-101-CommonQuestions.php
- StavrosK 9y ago
  Hmm, I don't see anything in there related to skill acquisition in younger vs older people, I'm afraid. Most of the links are about skill acquisition in general, and how the brain changes. One is to a Google book that won't show the page (I don't know why, it says the page is unavailable), and the last link is a teacher saying he guesses children learn more quickly because they're more plastic (but I guess they learn faster because they have more free time/willingness to practice)...
  - heldrida 9y ago
    Children are blank canvas, adults have habits; repetition makes it great but it also perpetuates habits. To achieve mastery in some areas you'd have to be born again. Pinker's The Language Instict. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Language_Instinct https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Language_Instinct https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2947444/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2947444/ Noam Chomsky, the world's most popular linguistic https://study.com/academy/lesson/noam-chomsky-on-language-theories-lesson-quiz.html https://study.com/academy/lesson/noam-chomsky-on-language-th...

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

sireat 9y ago

Same goes for chess. 15 is already considered very late to start serious study in chess. You simply do not develop the unconscious mastery the blink like ability to play a good move instantly. It is not the lack of time in older players either. Tales abound of players of independent means dedicating themselves to chess and getting nowhere near master level. By reverse, no chess player started at 25 and made Grandmaster. A huge outlier is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_K._Shaw https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_K._Shaw who was a club level player at 19.

cepth 9y ago
I’m not sure these claims are entirely true. Quick search turns up this list: https://www.quora.com/Is-there-any-famous-chess-player-or-grandmaster-who-started-late-like-in-their-20s-or-30s https://www.quora.com/Is-there-any-famous-chess-player-or-gr... Chigorin is from a different era, but he didn’t begin playing “seriously” until 24, and was a 2 time world championship challenger. Getting to master (2200 rating) level play is ultimately just an investment of time and money. For better or worse, the “consensus” is that master level play is not due to some kind of innate ability. Drilling the pattern recognition inherent in all phases of play is the key determinant for reaching ~2200 rating. Do a cursory Google search, and you’ll turn up hundreds of threads about this topic. Becoming an international master (IM) or grandmaster (GM) requires navigating FIDE’s, the world’s chess governing body’s, arcane rules around norms, or results, for the GM or IM title. I’m by no means an expert on the scientific piece of this, but I’d posit that the number of adults who have the financial means and time to travel across the United States or world to find tournaments that will earn them a norm is negligible. When you’re young and your parents are paying the bills, chess can seem fun and rewarding. When it’s you personally who is paying the bills for tournament registration, hotels, and planes, it’s a lot less fun.
- sireat 9y ago
  Alas that Quora tread is full of questionable answers as Quora threads tend to do. My bias: I am a FIDE master who skipped chess study for a year when I was a teenager. (insert Brando quote from On the Waterfront here). Notice that the main examples that would disprove my premise are from 19th century. You'd need chess historian Winters to sort the claims but Chigorin's "seriously" is something to debate. Why aren't modern influx of adult players making masters? Plenty of adults playing in tournaments all around the world spending thousands on travel and equipment and training. Most of us are having fun but the improvement is not there. Also GM Klovans was a master level player in his teens and GM strength player as a young adult. Source: knew him personally and cherish the only draw I had against him. The few modern day examples started in late teeens and fit within my narrative. If there is a "consensus" that becoming a master does not require some innate ability then where are those masters? Show me a master level player who started at age 30. The chess.com megathread on this topic came up with an expert who achieved his title after starting at age 30 and that really is an outstanding accomplishment and a huge outlier. If "consensus" is correct there should be more numerous examples. Pretty much all adult players have hit a serious wall this you can see by looking at rating charts. The only exceptions are returnees who dedicate themselves to chess full time and even then the gains are miniscule 50-100 rating points at best and then they hit the wall and that's that. Thus I take serious issue with your presumption that "Getting to master (2200 rating) level play is ultimately just an investment of time and money." My thesis that chess skill/rating = talent * early start * dedicated study . You need all 3, if one is missing your chess skill will be seriously hampered.