7 ms·

I really miss pg. I have given away many copies of Hackers and Painters and have forwarded many more pdf copies of it (pirated, sorry, but for a good cause) du

by Jun8 9y ago

I really miss pg. I have given away many copies of Hackers and Painters and have forwarded many more pdf copies of it (pirated, sorry, but for a good cause) due to exactly the same reason that Gideons place their book in hotel rooms or YW's give away their "literature": I was trying to convert people to his way of objective, no holds barred, minimalist way of thinking/writing. Unfortunately, his approach has been equated by many to the "SV hacker types have an answer to all world's great problems and they're all wrong and naive" school of thought, the belittlement and maligning of which is very much in vogue nowadays. But these people miss the point. pg is interesting precisely because he was (is?) so different from mainstream SV thinking (compare&contrast sama's writings and his essays, not saying one is better but they are quite different). Read his essay "What You cannot Say" (http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html) as an antidote to current hysterical state of thought, "What You'll Wish You'd Known" (http://www.paulgraham.com/hs.html http://www.paulgraham.com/hs.html) should be required for all high school students around the world trying to shape their lives. Hero worship from a founder-wannabe? Perhaps. Read the essays yourself and find out.

mpfundstein 9y ago
Did he stop writing/publishing/being active? pg so fundamentally changed my way of looking at things like not a lot of authors before. It also made me very depressed because I began to realize how fucked up life as an SE can be if you work in the wrong environments. But it also enlightened me and now I know precisely where I want to be.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- mysterypie 9y ago
  He used to be a prolific commenter here on HN, but he hasn't posted for 2.5 years[1] though he did write three short essays in 2017[2]. I assume that middle age, wife, child, and running a startup incubator/accelerator are major impediments to anyone continuing with comments, essays, and programming. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=pg https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=pg [2] http://www.paulgraham.com/articles.html http://www.paulgraham.com/articles.html
  - ema 9y ago
    Reading (not even) between his lines it seems that it was the increased hostility of online discourse that stopped him from writing more. I'm sure he hasn't run out of ideas and wouldn't mind sharing them if there was less screaming in response to them.
    - natecavanaugh 9y ago
      I wonder if some nominal fee might filter out those who wish to troll him and his content. Like maybe a buck a month to read his content, 2 to be able to comment and add to the discussion. It could still be moderated to filter the trolls with means, but I haven't run across too many people who are willing to contribute 24 bucks a year in order to scream at someone else online. Maybe a scheme like Pinboard, where each user raises the cost in a small way as a selective pressure for handling user growth. But I could be deluded. I believe his ideas and content are worth far more than the prices I mentioned, but if he'd give them away, why not to folks who are willing to put some skin in the game? For me, he's one of the few writers online where I'd pay for consistent thought pieces.
- sotojuan 9y ago
  Seems like his output diminished after he had kids, which makes perfect sense.
shanghaiaway 9y ago
There is no objective way of thinking or writing. It is disconcerting that you really believe there is.
- maldusiecle 9y ago
  It's unsurprising that negative views of Paul Graham are downvoted here, but this is a very worthwhile point. There is nothing "objective" about writing in a bland, unornamented style, or about treating complex problems as if they were syllogisms. Fans of Paul Graham's writing are often like the inverse of undergraduates who revere "difficult" writing for its own sake; both mistake a choice of style for a virtue of thought.
  - astine 9y ago
    I dunno. I'm mean, sure, you can express stupid ideas with any writing style, but it's easier to obscure weak ideas with difficult writing. PGs thought on a given subject might be simplistic, but at least I can tell what they are.
doodpants 9y ago
PG is certainly a smart man, who has written some compelling essays. However, whenever I see a reference to Hackers and Painters, I am always reminded of the rebuttal essay Dabblers and Blowhards [0], which is rather amusing and insightful IMHO. [0] http://idlewords.com/2005/04/dabblers_and_blowhards.htm http://idlewords.com/2005/04/dabblers_and_blowhards.htm
- thisiszilff 9y ago
  What I got out of Hackers and Painters is that the two activities are similar in procedure: most basically you begin with an idea, you, you make an initial sketching, then you iterate with periods of refactoring until it's done. That's a procedure that seems true of ANY creative process, and the essay argues hacking is more of a creative process than whatever else a person might think it is. This is especially true when working with certain languages where you're encouraged to constantly rework designs. Dabblers and Blowhards kind of missed this point, but the overall criticism stands: an individuals subjective experience of an activity isn't necessarily shared by everyone.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
cma 9y ago
> answer to all world's great problems and they're all wrong and naive" Just point out that in "A Plan for Spam" he demonstrably solved one of the world's great problems.
WalterGR 9y ago
I have given away many copies of Hackers and Painters... Since you're familiar with the namesake of the following question (or vice versa) could you explain this RAQ? "Why don't more painters have hacking jobs?" I don't get it. These questions seem similar: Why don't more hackers have milking cattle jobs? Why don't more painters have doctoring jobs? Clearly I'm missing something!
- Jun8 9y ago
  My interpretation is that pg is using these terms as two things that the public thinks are very different (a la The Two Cultures, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Two_Cultures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Two_Cultures) but deep down are quite similar, two faces of a coin, if you will. This is because both are makers. The reason he uses a painter as opposed to a writer, etc. is that he has studied painting. "When I finished grad school in computer science I went to art school to study painting. A lot of people seemed surprised that someone interested in computers would also be interested in painting. They seemed to think that hacking and painting were very different kinds of work—that hacking was cold, precise, and methodical, and that painting was the frenzied expression of some primal urge." There are many jobs, some that pay quite well, that don't make things, I think your two examples fall into this general category.

by Jun8 9y ago

mpfundstein 9y ago

Did he stop writing/publishing/being active? pg so fundamentally changed my way of looking at things like not a lot of authors before. It also made me very depressed because I began to realize how fucked up life as an SE can be if you work in the wrong environments. But it also enlightened me and now I know precisely where I want to be.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
mysterypie 9y ago
He used to be a prolific commenter here on HN, but he hasn't posted for 2.5 years[1] though he did write three short essays in 2017[2]. I assume that middle age, wife, child, and running a startup incubator/accelerator are major impediments to anyone continuing with comments, essays, and programming. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=pg https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=pg [2] http://www.paulgraham.com/articles.html http://www.paulgraham.com/articles.html
- ema 9y ago
  Reading (not even) between his lines it seems that it was the increased hostility of online discourse that stopped him from writing more. I'm sure he hasn't run out of ideas and wouldn't mind sharing them if there was less screaming in response to them.
  - natecavanaugh 9y ago
    I wonder if some nominal fee might filter out those who wish to troll him and his content. Like maybe a buck a month to read his content, 2 to be able to comment and add to the discussion. It could still be moderated to filter the trolls with means, but I haven't run across too many people who are willing to contribute 24 bucks a year in order to scream at someone else online. Maybe a scheme like Pinboard, where each user raises the cost in a small way as a selective pressure for handling user growth. But I could be deluded. I believe his ideas and content are worth far more than the prices I mentioned, but if he'd give them away, why not to folks who are willing to put some skin in the game? For me, he's one of the few writers online where I'd pay for consistent thought pieces.
sotojuan 9y ago
Seems like his output diminished after he had kids, which makes perfect sense.

shanghaiaway 9y ago

There is no objective way of thinking or writing. It is disconcerting that you really believe there is.

maldusiecle 9y ago
It's unsurprising that negative views of Paul Graham are downvoted here, but this is a very worthwhile point. There is nothing "objective" about writing in a bland, unornamented style, or about treating complex problems as if they were syllogisms. Fans of Paul Graham's writing are often like the inverse of undergraduates who revere "difficult" writing for its own sake; both mistake a choice of style for a virtue of thought.
- astine 9y ago
  I dunno. I'm mean, sure, you can express stupid ideas with any writing style, but it's easier to obscure weak ideas with difficult writing. PGs thought on a given subject might be simplistic, but at least I can tell what they are.

doodpants 9y ago

PG is certainly a smart man, who has written some compelling essays. However, whenever I see a reference to Hackers and Painters, I am always reminded of the rebuttal essay Dabblers and Blowhards [0], which is rather amusing and insightful IMHO. [0] http://idlewords.com/2005/04/dabblers_and_blowhards.htm http://idlewords.com/2005/04/dabblers_and_blowhards.htm

thisiszilff 9y ago
What I got out of Hackers and Painters is that the two activities are similar in procedure: most basically you begin with an idea, you, you make an initial sketching, then you iterate with periods of refactoring until it's done. That's a procedure that seems true of ANY creative process, and the essay argues hacking is more of a creative process than whatever else a person might think it is. This is especially true when working with certain languages where you're encouraged to constantly rework designs. Dabblers and Blowhards kind of missed this point, but the overall criticism stands: an individuals subjective experience of an activity isn't necessarily shared by everyone.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

cma 9y ago

> answer to all world's great problems and they're all wrong and naive" Just point out that in "A Plan for Spam" he demonstrably solved one of the world's great problems.

WalterGR 9y ago

I have given away many copies of Hackers and Painters... Since you're familiar with the namesake of the following question (or vice versa) could you explain this RAQ? "Why don't more painters have hacking jobs?" I don't get it. These questions seem similar: Why don't more hackers have milking cattle jobs? Why don't more painters have doctoring jobs? Clearly I'm missing something!

Jun8 9y ago
My interpretation is that pg is using these terms as two things that the public thinks are very different (a la The Two Cultures, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Two_Cultures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Two_Cultures) but deep down are quite similar, two faces of a coin, if you will. This is because both are makers. The reason he uses a painter as opposed to a writer, etc. is that he has studied painting. "When I finished grad school in computer science I went to art school to study painting. A lot of people seemed surprised that someone interested in computers would also be interested in painting. They seemed to think that hacking and painting were very different kinds of work—that hacking was cold, precise, and methodical, and that painting was the frenzied expression of some primal urge." There are many jobs, some that pay quite well, that don't make things, I think your two examples fall into this general category.