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PG's anti-philosophy agit-prop is always very juvenile. The "philosophy is proto-versions of everything else" schtick is such a confused, petulant view. Resea

PG's anti-philosophy agit-prop is always very juvenile. The "philosophy is proto-versions of everything else" schtick is such a confused, petulant view. Research academic analytic philosophy as practiced in contemporary universities at post-grad level, as published in journals, has nothing to do with the "philosophy" of history which meant any "thinking systematically". (Imagine "physics" being held to account for artistotle's Physics!) Research philosophy is metacogition, ie., the application of concepts-about-concepts to whichever concepts are of interest to a given philosopher: everything from programming to physics to art. This isnt a proto-version or a degraded version or anyhting. Its an enitrely different discipline. Physicists do not regard cycling has some "proto" version of classical physics. The employing of domain concepts is different to employing metacognative concepts to that domain. The latter is a whole field of independent research with its own goals, criteria, method.

lmm 9y ago
I think you demonstrate PG's point that words are unclear and this is a source of much confusion. Even today, different people use "philosophy" to mean radically different things. > Research academic analytic philosophy as practiced in contemporary universities at post-grad level, as published in journals, has nothing to do with the "philosophy" of history which meant any "thinking systematically". If post-grad philosophy is so thoroughly different from what is taught as "philosophy" in undergrad, it would behove them to use a different name.
- typon 9y ago
  I think the rest of the world is just fine with understanding concepts or words that have overloaded meaning. I don't see how this is some showstopper idea.
  - astine 9y ago
    I notice that there is a lot of conflict these days about what should be called 'racism' or 'sexism' and a lot of it stems from words with overloaded meanings. People actually come to blows over this.
- snowwrestler 9y ago
  Philosophy is not different from other areas of study in that respect. Post-grad physics is very different from undergrad physics too. A general way to consider the difference between undergrad and post-grad flavors of an academic discipline is that undergrad is primarily about learning how to apply what is known, while post-grad is primarily about exploring the unknown to create new knowledge. These are very different mindsets; it's one reason that so many successful undergrads with great grades never make it to Ph.D. or beyond.
  - lmm 9y ago
    > Philosophy is not different from other areas of study in that respect. Post-grad physics is very different from undergrad physics too. > A general way to consider the difference between undergrad and post-grad flavors of an academic discipline is that undergrad is primarily about learning how to apply what is known, while post-grad is primarily about exploring the unknown to create new knowledge. The practice of researching physics is very different from the practice of teaching physics, sure. But it's the same "physics"; graduate physicists would be happy for their discipline to be judged by undergraduate physics (and undergraduate philosophy does include Aristotle, Aquinas and all that).
    - snowwrestler 9y ago
      I'm not sure what you mean by graduate physicists being "judged" by undergraduate physics, but most of what is taught in undergrad physics--Newtonian mechanics, optics, and gravity; Maxwell electromagnetism; the Bohr model of the atom, etc.--is sort of "wrong" in that it is an abstraction or simplification of the underlying theories that professional physicists spend their time considering and testing. If someone told you that they are a professional physicist and you said "oh, so you time pendulums and drop various objects from heights and build simple circuits," (common in undergrad physics labs) they would probably look at you funny. Undergrads simply don't have the math to do "real" physics. Even Feynman couldn't change that. He tried to build an intro to physics course around "real" physics, starting with the electron, but he ultimately judged his effort a failure.
walterbell 9y ago
> The employing of domain concepts is different to employing metacognative concepts to that domain. The latter is a whole field of independent research with its own goals, criteria, method. Pointers to respected books, sites, programs would be appreciated.
AnimalMuppet 9y ago
There's more to philosophy than analytic philosophy, though. And I have seen at least one proponent of continental philosophy state that contemporary French philosophers strive to sound impressive, rather than to be clear. That's... not going to be optimal at producing insight.
- mjburgess 9y ago
  No, I don't think there is "more to philosophy". That's my point. That's like saying "there's more to banks than just places you put money, they also line the edges of rivers!". The term "philosophy" is polysemous, and refers to distinct methodologies/areas. Continental philosophy has a more literary methodology and has very differnt concerns. On the whole, the methodological assumption behind the whole activity is that phenomenology is the horizon of study. Ie., it denies the causal origin of experience. You might call this a "radically specialized area of the general activity of PHILOSOPHY with peculiar methodology". Equally, that would apply to any discipline whatsoever. Equally, physics meets such criteria. In this sense then continental philosophy is not at all philosophy in the sense i mean. Nor is popular philosophy. Self-help books. "Metaphysics" as meant by crystal weilding "spirituals". All this is a reuse of the term. One may as well as a al-chemist for help with chemistry.

lmm 9y ago

I think you demonstrate PG's point that words are unclear and this is a source of much confusion. Even today, different people use "philosophy" to mean radically different things. > Research academic analytic philosophy as practiced in contemporary universities at post-grad level, as published in journals, has nothing to do with the "philosophy" of history which meant any "thinking systematically". If post-grad philosophy is so thoroughly different from what is taught as "philosophy" in undergrad, it would behove them to use a different name.

typon 9y ago
I think the rest of the world is just fine with understanding concepts or words that have overloaded meaning. I don't see how this is some showstopper idea.
- astine 9y ago
  I notice that there is a lot of conflict these days about what should be called 'racism' or 'sexism' and a lot of it stems from words with overloaded meanings. People actually come to blows over this.
snowwrestler 9y ago
Philosophy is not different from other areas of study in that respect. Post-grad physics is very different from undergrad physics too. A general way to consider the difference between undergrad and post-grad flavors of an academic discipline is that undergrad is primarily about learning how to apply what is known, while post-grad is primarily about exploring the unknown to create new knowledge. These are very different mindsets; it's one reason that so many successful undergrads with great grades never make it to Ph.D. or beyond.
- lmm 9y ago
  > Philosophy is not different from other areas of study in that respect. Post-grad physics is very different from undergrad physics too. > A general way to consider the difference between undergrad and post-grad flavors of an academic discipline is that undergrad is primarily about learning how to apply what is known, while post-grad is primarily about exploring the unknown to create new knowledge. The practice of researching physics is very different from the practice of teaching physics, sure. But it's the same "physics"; graduate physicists would be happy for their discipline to be judged by undergraduate physics (and undergraduate philosophy does include Aristotle, Aquinas and all that).
  - snowwrestler 9y ago
    I'm not sure what you mean by graduate physicists being "judged" by undergraduate physics, but most of what is taught in undergrad physics--Newtonian mechanics, optics, and gravity; Maxwell electromagnetism; the Bohr model of the atom, etc.--is sort of "wrong" in that it is an abstraction or simplification of the underlying theories that professional physicists spend their time considering and testing. If someone told you that they are a professional physicist and you said "oh, so you time pendulums and drop various objects from heights and build simple circuits," (common in undergrad physics labs) they would probably look at you funny. Undergrads simply don't have the math to do "real" physics. Even Feynman couldn't change that. He tried to build an intro to physics course around "real" physics, starting with the electron, but he ultimately judged his effort a failure.

walterbell 9y ago

> The employing of domain concepts is different to employing metacognative concepts to that domain. The latter is a whole field of independent research with its own goals, criteria, method. Pointers to respected books, sites, programs would be appreciated.

AnimalMuppet 9y ago

There's more to philosophy than analytic philosophy, though. And I have seen at least one proponent of continental philosophy state that contemporary French philosophers strive to sound impressive, rather than to be clear. That's... not going to be optimal at producing insight.

mjburgess 9y ago
No, I don't think there is "more to philosophy". That's my point. That's like saying "there's more to banks than just places you put money, they also line the edges of rivers!". The term "philosophy" is polysemous, and refers to distinct methodologies/areas. Continental philosophy has a more literary methodology and has very differnt concerns. On the whole, the methodological assumption behind the whole activity is that phenomenology is the horizon of study. Ie., it denies the causal origin of experience. You might call this a "radically specialized area of the general activity of PHILOSOPHY with peculiar methodology". Equally, that would apply to any discipline whatsoever. Equally, physics meets such criteria. In this sense then continental philosophy is not at all philosophy in the sense i mean. Nor is popular philosophy. Self-help books. "Metaphysics" as meant by crystal weilding "spirituals". All this is a reuse of the term. One may as well as a al-chemist for help with chemistry.