5 ms·

I was reading Aristotle's Nichomachean Ethics, and he talks about being liberal and magnificent with money. I'm in Vietnam now, things are cheap-ish anyways, so

I was reading Aristotle's Nichomachean Ethics, and he talks about being liberal and magnificent with money. I'm in Vietnam now, things are cheap-ish anyways, so I decided I'm make the transition towards doing that. I wrote up my first experiences here - http://www.sebastianmarshall.com/?p=161 http://www.sebastianmarshall.com/?p=161 Since then, it's been even more crazy. I was just trying to be gracious - I wasn't trying to bribe for favors like the author of the gourmet.com piece. Just either before or after I get service, tipping more. Result is staggering to me - people start working for you. I wasn't asking anything in return, but I'm now getting informed on all sorts of little details, recommendations, little extra services here and there. In the changing room of the place I go to get a massage, the guy there is like my intelligence agent now. As I was getting changed back into street clothes after getting a massage, he says, "Psst - hey, next time... go with locker #1." He taps the locker. He explains, "Very pretty, young girl. Best girl here." Apparently the experience is streamlined by number the whole way through - locker number, who you are massage therapist is, and billing for tips/coffee/extra food or drink you order is all tied together. He also shined my boots and he's super friendly helping me put a robe. It's strange, I came from pretty humble origins so this is all very new for me. I just thought I should start being good to people and taking care of people, and I'm kind of taken aback by how gracious people are. It's still against my nature to over-tip, I came up pretty frugal and had literally no money for large portions of my life, but I'm starting to see the value of really taking care of people. There's a security guard near where I live who I'm friendly with, I'm going to go buy him a tuna sandwich next time I'm buying stuff at the bakery. I think, just like that, I'll go from having a friendly acquaintance to having a guide and intelligence agent. That's not even why I do it. I thought - give back, spread money around a little bit, take care of people. But people seem to really want to take care of you when you do. It's like you're signalling that you're a person who takes good care of people or some such. I don't know, still very new to me. It's interesting though.

diN0bot 16y ago
i think what you're doing is great, so don't take my hypothesis the wrong way: i have a dog and i live with 8 other people, so i have a bit of data on 8 different dog-human relationships. it boils dog to the dog treating everyone differently depending on who gives him food. P always give dog his sandwich crusts without asking anything in return, so when P walks in the door with a subway, dog goes grazy. in fact, P started giving more when dog wimpered, so for a little while dog whimpered until i made P not be such a sucker. A always lets dog lick his plates, so dog gets excited when A finishes eating. L requires dog to lie down in a neighboring room, so dog beg's from neighboring room when L eats. it's not love or care, it's simple causation and reward. dog constantly tries different tactics on those people who give him food. often, the amount of food escalates. btw, dog goes crazy when the (human) dinner bell is rung. edit: also, in restaurants, bribing before is a bit like tipping afterwards. the wait staff is constantly evaluating how much effort to expand on incoming parties (among other things) in order to maximize tips. in light of that, treatin an apparently wealthy couple well in hopes of a good tip isn't unreasonable. as for accepting bribes...depending on the place it's not that different from a tip except that it comes before not after the service (some places split tips with the whole staff, including say back waiters, etc, so then it might be immoral if the people keep the bribe for themselves. as for the immorallity of "jumping" the queue--for all i know, the wait staff does that anyway when they evaluate how much people can tip....)
- whatusername 16y ago
  Can I just warn you that our dog always ate the scraps (and too much of them) and ended up with Diabetes. (Such a first world problem I know). Having to give her 2 insulin injections a day was not very fun (or cheap).
  - megablast 16y ago
    Maybe that says more about the food you are eating, and a warning to change your diet.
    - whatusername 16y ago
      Could be. Although I think in this case it came down to calorie quantity and not quality.
    - hugh3 16y ago
      Not really, dogs have very different dietary needs to humans.
      - eru 16y ago
        Especially when it comes to chocolate.
stonemetal 16y ago
Kind of reminds me of a friend who worked in sales. Whenever he was going to take a client to a restaurant he would always go to the restaurant the day before find a waiter who was going to be there during the lunch meeting and tip heavily so as to be sure of good service during the working lunch.
noodle 16y ago
its surprising how quickly people go out of their way to be friendly and helpful to you when you're a model customer. and i mean model as someone who is easy, friendly, regular, and consistently tips. most service industry people can't outright reject customers without a really good reason, so if you can make someone's day easier, they'll typically reciprocate it.
- megablast 16y ago
  Yes, a model customer is also someone who never complains no matter how bad the service is, and how bad the staff screw up. That is not the best way to go about things. I have also seen the best service going to those who make the most amount of noise, who shout the loudest, and cause the most amount of trouble, since no one wants to upset that person. And I have seen model customers ignored over this person, since they will not complain. It is not as simple and gracious a system as you suggest.
  - IgorPartola 16y ago
    Yes, you can shout and be obnoxious and get what you want. Or you can be nice, polite and full of cash and/or smiles and get what you didn't expect. There are certainly more ways to go about something than just tipping and bribing, but in my experience I can always get the same result as long as I'm nice, polite but persuasive.
    - slavak 16y ago
      In addition I'd like to point out that it's generally a good idea to not be obnoxious to the person who is going to handle your FOOD. You might get a little extra in terms of service, but you're practically guaranteed to get a little something extra in your food...
  - noodle 16y ago
    > a model customer is also someone who never complains no matter how bad the service is hardly. but a model customer probably isn't an ass about complaining, either. i've complained about tons of shit, and they are much more receptive and responsive when they know its someone who is usually nice. > It is not as simple and gracious a system as you suggest. never said it was. i don't disagree with what you're saying, and it comes down to the fact that the person taking your order is going to get fired if they tell you to leave because you're a bad customer (in most places). so they generally have to sit there and take it, for the most part. which is why a good customer is usually treated like gold.
Yzupnick 16y ago
The truth is I'm not sure how the financial markets work in Vietnam, but in most Western Countries your dollar probably goes further when it comes to helping people out sitting in the bank than over-tipping and being kind to people. Granted it is probably good for you psychologically to form these relationships of mutual kindness, and to see yourself putting a smile on someones face on a daily basis. But in terms of "Giving back" and "spreading the money around", keeping your money in the bank is probably a better move. Again this is based on my limited understanding of the financial system in western countries and of economies. It is very likely that my understanding of economics is flawed and/or my comparison of Vietnam to the US is a bad comparison. If so, ignore everything I said.
- nl 16y ago
  I assume you are talking about the credit creation cycle (if not, then please explain your logic?) I think this depends on your definition of "goes further" While credit creation may create more value (measured in dollars) than tipping/gifts/charity, the opposite may be true if you measure in terms of numbers of people helped. Many people who are helped by tipping are service workers who don't have easy access to credit.
  - Yzupnick 16y ago
    Yes that is what I'm talking about. While they are not helped directly by getting loans, they are helped by overall growth in the economy.
holdenc 16y ago
I live in Southeast Asia as well, and there is a strong sense of reciprocity here (and no expectation of tipping) so if you do decide to tip, the obligation to repay will be very apparent.
- zackattack 16y ago
  I would guess that it's due to the collectivist culture and value on collaboration that inspires active triggers of reciprocity circuits
afterburner 16y ago
They're motivated by future tips, and by the extra opportunities they'll get from forwarding your generous business to people they know. The incentive is your money.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]

diN0bot 16y ago

i think what you're doing is great, so don't take my hypothesis the wrong way: i have a dog and i live with 8 other people, so i have a bit of data on 8 different dog-human relationships. it boils dog to the dog treating everyone differently depending on who gives him food. P always give dog his sandwich crusts without asking anything in return, so when P walks in the door with a subway, dog goes grazy. in fact, P started giving more when dog wimpered, so for a little while dog whimpered until i made P not be such a sucker. A always lets dog lick his plates, so dog gets excited when A finishes eating. L requires dog to lie down in a neighboring room, so dog beg's from neighboring room when L eats. it's not love or care, it's simple causation and reward. dog constantly tries different tactics on those people who give him food. often, the amount of food escalates. btw, dog goes crazy when the (human) dinner bell is rung. edit: also, in restaurants, bribing before is a bit like tipping afterwards. the wait staff is constantly evaluating how much effort to expand on incoming parties (among other things) in order to maximize tips. in light of that, treatin an apparently wealthy couple well in hopes of a good tip isn't unreasonable. as for accepting bribes...depending on the place it's not that different from a tip except that it comes before not after the service (some places split tips with the whole staff, including say back waiters, etc, so then it might be immoral if the people keep the bribe for themselves. as for the immorallity of "jumping" the queue--for all i know, the wait staff does that anyway when they evaluate how much people can tip....)

whatusername 16y ago
Can I just warn you that our dog always ate the scraps (and too much of them) and ended up with Diabetes. (Such a first world problem I know). Having to give her 2 insulin injections a day was not very fun (or cheap).
- megablast 16y ago
  Maybe that says more about the food you are eating, and a warning to change your diet.
  - whatusername 16y ago
    Could be. Although I think in this case it came down to calorie quantity and not quality.
  - hugh3 16y ago
    Not really, dogs have very different dietary needs to humans.
    - eru 16y ago
      Especially when it comes to chocolate.

stonemetal 16y ago

Kind of reminds me of a friend who worked in sales. Whenever he was going to take a client to a restaurant he would always go to the restaurant the day before find a waiter who was going to be there during the lunch meeting and tip heavily so as to be sure of good service during the working lunch.

noodle 16y ago

its surprising how quickly people go out of their way to be friendly and helpful to you when you're a model customer. and i mean model as someone who is easy, friendly, regular, and consistently tips. most service industry people can't outright reject customers without a really good reason, so if you can make someone's day easier, they'll typically reciprocate it.

megablast 16y ago
Yes, a model customer is also someone who never complains no matter how bad the service is, and how bad the staff screw up. That is not the best way to go about things. I have also seen the best service going to those who make the most amount of noise, who shout the loudest, and cause the most amount of trouble, since no one wants to upset that person. And I have seen model customers ignored over this person, since they will not complain. It is not as simple and gracious a system as you suggest.
- IgorPartola 16y ago
  Yes, you can shout and be obnoxious and get what you want. Or you can be nice, polite and full of cash and/or smiles and get what you didn't expect. There are certainly more ways to go about something than just tipping and bribing, but in my experience I can always get the same result as long as I'm nice, polite but persuasive.
  - slavak 16y ago
    In addition I'd like to point out that it's generally a good idea to not be obnoxious to the person who is going to handle your FOOD. You might get a little extra in terms of service, but you're practically guaranteed to get a little something extra in your food...
- noodle 16y ago
  > a model customer is also someone who never complains no matter how bad the service is hardly. but a model customer probably isn't an ass about complaining, either. i've complained about tons of shit, and they are much more receptive and responsive when they know its someone who is usually nice. > It is not as simple and gracious a system as you suggest. never said it was. i don't disagree with what you're saying, and it comes down to the fact that the person taking your order is going to get fired if they tell you to leave because you're a bad customer (in most places). so they generally have to sit there and take it, for the most part. which is why a good customer is usually treated like gold.

Yzupnick 16y ago

The truth is I'm not sure how the financial markets work in Vietnam, but in most Western Countries your dollar probably goes further when it comes to helping people out sitting in the bank than over-tipping and being kind to people. Granted it is probably good for you psychologically to form these relationships of mutual kindness, and to see yourself putting a smile on someones face on a daily basis. But in terms of "Giving back" and "spreading the money around", keeping your money in the bank is probably a better move. Again this is based on my limited understanding of the financial system in western countries and of economies. It is very likely that my understanding of economics is flawed and/or my comparison of Vietnam to the US is a bad comparison. If so, ignore everything I said.

nl 16y ago
I assume you are talking about the credit creation cycle (if not, then please explain your logic?) I think this depends on your definition of "goes further" While credit creation may create more value (measured in dollars) than tipping/gifts/charity, the opposite may be true if you measure in terms of numbers of people helped. Many people who are helped by tipping are service workers who don't have easy access to credit.
- Yzupnick 16y ago
  Yes that is what I'm talking about. While they are not helped directly by getting loans, they are helped by overall growth in the economy.

holdenc 16y ago

I live in Southeast Asia as well, and there is a strong sense of reciprocity here (and no expectation of tipping) so if you do decide to tip, the obligation to repay will be very apparent.

zackattack 16y ago
I would guess that it's due to the collectivist culture and value on collaboration that inspires active triggers of reciprocity circuits

afterburner 16y ago

They're motivated by future tips, and by the extra opportunities they'll get from forwarding your generous business to people they know. The incentive is your money.

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]