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That's only a way to get shiny new Google stuff over the supplier's extremely crappy base that will be even less likely to ever get upgraded. The fact that peop

That's only a way to get shiny new Google stuff over the supplier's extremely crappy base that will be even less likely to ever get upgraded. The fact that people point it out every time I mention the mess we're really in shows how it's a step back because it takes weight off the issue.

bri3d 9y ago
I see what you're saying - that having a common HAL interface will allow Google to ship newer Android over the same broken kernels. However, the base requirements for the Treble kernel and certification require a level of quality beyond what most manufacturer kernels currently offer, so I think it's at least a step forward before it's a step back.
- pedrocr 9y ago
  My point is that if it's indeed a small step forward, which is highly debatable, it's a huge step back from actually solving the underlying issue. Lenovo doesn't ship a half broken Linux kernel every time they release a new model. New stuff just gets rolled into upstream and then hardware gets support for close to forever. I bought an Android phone 4 months ago, selected specifically to be supported by LineageOS and in the top 20 in terms of usage. As it turns out support will not be added to the next Android version because specific kernel support would be needed and there's just no reasonable way of achieving it.
  - bubblethink 9y ago
    It's a fairly big step forward for the common user. There are two parts to it. The kernel used by OEMs is now mandated to be an eLTS version, which is 4.4 now, and the kernel will get backports for another 3 years I think. Treble makes porting new AOSP versions easier. It doesn't affect the kernel version too much directly, AFAIK. However, with 4.4 and treble, every device should get updates for another 3 years. And 3 years is better than 0. So there's that. About your phone purchase, there is no other manufacturer that has done a better job than Google so far. So if you care about these sorts of things, just buy whatever Google sells.
    - pjmlp 9y ago
      Google sells at outrageous prices for everyone on 2nd and 3rd tier countries. Additionally it isn't even available in most of the world.
    - pedrocr 9y ago
      >The kernel used by OEMs is now mandated to be an eLTS version, which is 4.4 now, and the kernel will get backports for another 3 years I think. That's only true if someone is willing to actually apply the changes over the hacked up kernel the manufacturer shipped. Even well organized projects like LineageOS don't manage to do that: https://cve.lineageos.org/kernels https://cve.lineageos.org/kernels Not upstreaming changes is the issue. That's what makes you stuck on an insecure kernel, not the particular kernel version. Having an LTS kernel will help but it doesn't solve anything. >However, with 4.4 and treble, every device should get updates for another 3 years. And 3 years is better than 0. Maybe most devices will get an update of the Google shipped stuff for 3 years. Most will not get things like Spectre mitigations in their kernels. And because Treble will be an argument for why this issue is fixed the long term outcome keeps getting worse and this will never get fixed. >About your phone purchase, there is no other manufacturer that has done a better job than Google so far. So if you care about these sorts of things, just buy whatever Google sells. For what I want, a proper upstream kernel that has a chance of being supported going forward, Google phones are no better as far as I've seen. They're just subcontracted phones to one of the manufacturers anyway.
krschultz 9y ago
Just rhetorically, if it's the response to your concern every time you write a post, then you need to incorporate why it's not a solution in your original post. I assumed you hadn't heard of Treble and was just about to point it out to you.
- pedrocr 9y ago
  You're right I should have mentioned it. I thought about it but the text was getting too long already and I was in a hurry.

bri3d 9y ago

I see what you're saying - that having a common HAL interface will allow Google to ship newer Android over the same broken kernels. However, the base requirements for the Treble kernel and certification require a level of quality beyond what most manufacturer kernels currently offer, so I think it's at least a step forward before it's a step back.

pedrocr 9y ago
My point is that if it's indeed a small step forward, which is highly debatable, it's a huge step back from actually solving the underlying issue. Lenovo doesn't ship a half broken Linux kernel every time they release a new model. New stuff just gets rolled into upstream and then hardware gets support for close to forever. I bought an Android phone 4 months ago, selected specifically to be supported by LineageOS and in the top 20 in terms of usage. As it turns out support will not be added to the next Android version because specific kernel support would be needed and there's just no reasonable way of achieving it.
- bubblethink 9y ago
  It's a fairly big step forward for the common user. There are two parts to it. The kernel used by OEMs is now mandated to be an eLTS version, which is 4.4 now, and the kernel will get backports for another 3 years I think. Treble makes porting new AOSP versions easier. It doesn't affect the kernel version too much directly, AFAIK. However, with 4.4 and treble, every device should get updates for another 3 years. And 3 years is better than 0. So there's that. About your phone purchase, there is no other manufacturer that has done a better job than Google so far. So if you care about these sorts of things, just buy whatever Google sells.
  - pjmlp 9y ago
    Google sells at outrageous prices for everyone on 2nd and 3rd tier countries. Additionally it isn't even available in most of the world.
  - pedrocr 9y ago
    >The kernel used by OEMs is now mandated to be an eLTS version, which is 4.4 now, and the kernel will get backports for another 3 years I think. That's only true if someone is willing to actually apply the changes over the hacked up kernel the manufacturer shipped. Even well organized projects like LineageOS don't manage to do that: https://cve.lineageos.org/kernels https://cve.lineageos.org/kernels Not upstreaming changes is the issue. That's what makes you stuck on an insecure kernel, not the particular kernel version. Having an LTS kernel will help but it doesn't solve anything. >However, with 4.4 and treble, every device should get updates for another 3 years. And 3 years is better than 0. Maybe most devices will get an update of the Google shipped stuff for 3 years. Most will not get things like Spectre mitigations in their kernels. And because Treble will be an argument for why this issue is fixed the long term outcome keeps getting worse and this will never get fixed. >About your phone purchase, there is no other manufacturer that has done a better job than Google so far. So if you care about these sorts of things, just buy whatever Google sells. For what I want, a proper upstream kernel that has a chance of being supported going forward, Google phones are no better as far as I've seen. They're just subcontracted phones to one of the manufacturers anyway.

krschultz 9y ago

Just rhetorically, if it's the response to your concern every time you write a post, then you need to incorporate why it's not a solution in your original post. I assumed you hadn't heard of Treble and was just about to point it out to you.

pedrocr 9y ago
You're right I should have mentioned it. I thought about it but the text was getting too long already and I was in a hurry.