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Great to read this. I too am a socialist and frequent Hacker News and work in startups. I'm a member of the International Socialist Organization, http://sociali

Great to read this. I too am a socialist and frequent Hacker News and work in startups. I'm a member of the International Socialist Organization, http://socialistworker.org/ http://socialistworker.org/, if you happen to be in the US and interested in a group and not yet part of one. I see you ended up getting people to argue definitions when they don't understand them anyway :). Like lionhearted, "means of production by violence". Violence is only necessary when those with the real rights to the means of production (the wealth they created) are attacked... So no, that is not part of Marx's theory. Marxist brand socialism is the healthiest place to be if you are for freedom and the end of oppression! It is sad how little people care to learn of Marxism, instead happily believe the lies they are told.

lzw 16y ago
Me and my friends make a startup, we make lots of money. You want to tax it? Do you want to force us to hire employes on terms that you dictate? These are sincere questions-- what effect would your socialist system have on our little voluntary startup? If the answer is none, how is it different from capitalism? What if we got big? If you want to force us to hire certain people, pay them a certain amount, or prevent us from getting big-- all policies advocated by various socialist organizations-- how is this not an end of freedom and oppression? Meanwhile I don't care if you form a collective, and you have whatever socialist policies in your collective, so long as all the participants are voluntary. I've yet to meet a socialist or a socialist organization that would extend the same courtesy. Because letting people be free from oppression means letting them pool capital, which is generally a problem for socialists, isn't it?
- kungfooguru 16y ago
  First let me argue not as a socialist but pretending I'm a liberal. Are you saying that when you make a startup and sell a product you gain nothing from public services during this time? There is no reason for you to be taxed to provide those services? There will be no 'startups' in the sense you think of, meaning dealing with capital. Decisions of production will be done democratically in communities. If you want to think of yourself as an artisan that could be argued that you could still have your "startup". But you will not be collecting capital from investors and enslaving workers to a wage. It is a very different way of thinking and living and can be hard to grasp. But so was capitalism and capitalism was a very progressive movement in its beginning. But it runs its course as it destroys the planet and human interaction and continues to concentrate more and more wealth in fewer and fewer hands.
  - lzw 16y ago
    I see, so you justify the use of violence, eg, taxation backed by laws and menvwith guns, based on the erroneous assumption that the victims of your violence want the so called services you claim to provide. Well at least your no longer pretending to advocate for freedom from oppression. Fwiw, every capitalist would happily pay for the services they used, they do it all the time by going to other companiesvand hiring them or buying products. The whole taxation racket is awoke, tax first then justify it because the services-- which would be provided cheaper and more efficiently by a free market, of course-- are used because were forced to use them. Post hoc, ergo proctor hoc. Reality is, this is all rationalizations. You wantbot use vioelence to comp ell others to live according to your dictates, and this is why all socialist system save turned into tyrannies.
  - kungfooguru 16y ago
    I love Chicago's private street meters. They are so much cheaper than public ones... WAIT A MINUTE!

lzw 16y ago

Me and my friends make a startup, we make lots of money. You want to tax it? Do you want to force us to hire employes on terms that you dictate? These are sincere questions-- what effect would your socialist system have on our little voluntary startup? If the answer is none, how is it different from capitalism? What if we got big? If you want to force us to hire certain people, pay them a certain amount, or prevent us from getting big-- all policies advocated by various socialist organizations-- how is this not an end of freedom and oppression? Meanwhile I don't care if you form a collective, and you have whatever socialist policies in your collective, so long as all the participants are voluntary. I've yet to meet a socialist or a socialist organization that would extend the same courtesy. Because letting people be free from oppression means letting them pool capital, which is generally a problem for socialists, isn't it?

kungfooguru 16y ago
First let me argue not as a socialist but pretending I'm a liberal. Are you saying that when you make a startup and sell a product you gain nothing from public services during this time? There is no reason for you to be taxed to provide those services? There will be no 'startups' in the sense you think of, meaning dealing with capital. Decisions of production will be done democratically in communities. If you want to think of yourself as an artisan that could be argued that you could still have your "startup". But you will not be collecting capital from investors and enslaving workers to a wage. It is a very different way of thinking and living and can be hard to grasp. But so was capitalism and capitalism was a very progressive movement in its beginning. But it runs its course as it destroys the planet and human interaction and continues to concentrate more and more wealth in fewer and fewer hands.
- lzw 16y ago
  I see, so you justify the use of violence, eg, taxation backed by laws and menvwith guns, based on the erroneous assumption that the victims of your violence want the so called services you claim to provide. Well at least your no longer pretending to advocate for freedom from oppression. Fwiw, every capitalist would happily pay for the services they used, they do it all the time by going to other companiesvand hiring them or buying products. The whole taxation racket is awoke, tax first then justify it because the services-- which would be provided cheaper and more efficiently by a free market, of course-- are used because were forced to use them. Post hoc, ergo proctor hoc. Reality is, this is all rationalizations. You wantbot use vioelence to comp ell others to live according to your dictates, and this is why all socialist system save turned into tyrannies.
- kungfooguru 16y ago
  I love Chicago's private street meters. They are so much cheaper than public ones... WAIT A MINUTE!