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Capitalism, Socialism, Libertarianism, Anarchism, Conservatism, etc... these labels are now so confused and bereft of concrete meaning that their use is largely

by dood 16y ago

Capitalism, Socialism, Libertarianism, Anarchism, Conservatism, etc... these labels are now so confused and bereft of concrete meaning that their use is largely counterproductive. If you want to say something political, say it, don't stick a label on your forehead.

lzw 16y ago
These labels are one bereft of meaning because socialists arevcosntantly attempting to coopt them. They havev even cooped the republican party. Libertarian means you do not believe in the initiation of force. This is incompatible with socialism which, it's core, requires the use of force to make people live a certain way. The term libertarian has clear meaning, and all of the others will, so long as we do not tolerate their misuse and call it out when they are misused.
- raganwald 16y ago
  This is incompatible with socialism which, it's core, requires the use of force to make people live a certain way. You can't really slip that in like everyone agrees it's a fact. Where does it say that Socialism requires force? The last few anarchists I spoke to describe capitalism as requiring force, because you need to enforce the notion of the ownership of things. For example, what force is required to copy a movie? The force is all on the side of lawyers and policemen arresting people to compel them to treat a very, very long number as property.
  - lzw 16y ago
    Capitalism is a system whereby people are allowed to accumulate capital, and then with the voluntary consent of other people, form collectives, called corporations, where that capital and the labor of all the people is deployed to produce products and services with the hopes of generating profits to be distributed to the members of the collective based on the prior agreement for distribution. Socialists generally seem to feel that this is unfair because the people who put up capital are rewarded. But at any rate, if you do Not have an external force dictating, at the point of gun, how people are to be organized, they can organize as I described above, and historically have. Since this organization is a capitalist one, socialists must use violence to stop it. There are two ways violence can be imposed. In one, you are denuding yourself or your partner or property. In the other you are attempting to steal the life or property of another. I draw a moral distinction between shooting the guy who is raping my wife, and you coming along and redistributing the profits of my company, which you didn't help create, along the lines of your ideals. You want to form a company that under different ideals, then that's fine by me... So long as everyone involved consents. There is nothing in a capitalist society to stop you from having such a collective. However, socialism is based on the idea that capital has no value and only labor does, and thus you must use guns to prevent anyone from accumulating too much.
    - raganwald 16y ago
      socialism is based on the idea that capital has no value and only labor does, and thus you must use guns to prevent anyone from accumulating too much. Nowhere in my essay did I say anything about the use of guns. I am not an expert on socialism, but I don't recall anyone I have met who identifies as a socialist telling me to grab a gun and use violence. Therefore, I am going to leave you to argue with yourself since you are spending all of your words telling ME what socialism means and then explaining why YOUR definition of socialism is bad. Have fun.
  - ArturSoler 16y ago
    > For example, what force is required to copy a movie? The force is all on the side of lawyers and policemen arresting people to compel them to treat a very, very long number as property. Strawman. Libertarianism does not defend the idea of IP.

by dood 16y ago

lzw 16y ago

These labels are one bereft of meaning because socialists arevcosntantly attempting to coopt them. They havev even cooped the republican party. Libertarian means you do not believe in the initiation of force. This is incompatible with socialism which, it's core, requires the use of force to make people live a certain way. The term libertarian has clear meaning, and all of the others will, so long as we do not tolerate their misuse and call it out when they are misused.

raganwald 16y ago
This is incompatible with socialism which, it's core, requires the use of force to make people live a certain way. You can't really slip that in like everyone agrees it's a fact. Where does it say that Socialism requires force? The last few anarchists I spoke to describe capitalism as requiring force, because you need to enforce the notion of the ownership of things. For example, what force is required to copy a movie? The force is all on the side of lawyers and policemen arresting people to compel them to treat a very, very long number as property.
- lzw 16y ago
  Capitalism is a system whereby people are allowed to accumulate capital, and then with the voluntary consent of other people, form collectives, called corporations, where that capital and the labor of all the people is deployed to produce products and services with the hopes of generating profits to be distributed to the members of the collective based on the prior agreement for distribution. Socialists generally seem to feel that this is unfair because the people who put up capital are rewarded. But at any rate, if you do Not have an external force dictating, at the point of gun, how people are to be organized, they can organize as I described above, and historically have. Since this organization is a capitalist one, socialists must use violence to stop it. There are two ways violence can be imposed. In one, you are denuding yourself or your partner or property. In the other you are attempting to steal the life or property of another. I draw a moral distinction between shooting the guy who is raping my wife, and you coming along and redistributing the profits of my company, which you didn't help create, along the lines of your ideals. You want to form a company that under different ideals, then that's fine by me... So long as everyone involved consents. There is nothing in a capitalist society to stop you from having such a collective. However, socialism is based on the idea that capital has no value and only labor does, and thus you must use guns to prevent anyone from accumulating too much.
  - raganwald 16y ago
    socialism is based on the idea that capital has no value and only labor does, and thus you must use guns to prevent anyone from accumulating too much. Nowhere in my essay did I say anything about the use of guns. I am not an expert on socialism, but I don't recall anyone I have met who identifies as a socialist telling me to grab a gun and use violence. Therefore, I am going to leave you to argue with yourself since you are spending all of your words telling ME what socialism means and then explaining why YOUR definition of socialism is bad. Have fun.
- ArturSoler 16y ago
  > For example, what force is required to copy a movie? The force is all on the side of lawyers and policemen arresting people to compel them to treat a very, very long number as property. Strawman. Libertarianism does not defend the idea of IP.