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Fun fact: oil change places sell your odometer reading to your car insurer, who may increase your rates if you drove more miles than you said you would: https:/

Fun fact: oil change places sell your odometer reading to your car insurer, who may increase your rates if you drove more miles than you said you would: https://splinternews.com/how-car-insurance-companies-spy-on-your-mileage-1793860442 https://splinternews.com/how-car-insurance-companies-spy-on-...

miketery 9y ago
How is this legal for the oil shop to do?
- rdmsr 9y ago
  It’s probably implied by something deep in the TOS.
  - TangoTrotFox 9y ago
    It doesn't need to be in the ToS. In the US your information has no legal protection, with a handful of exceptions like medical information. You should assume any information you give to any company is being shared, sold, and utilized to the fullest extent to monetize you. Even if you believe Zuckerberg has changed, it does put a quite apropo spin on those IMs from when he first started Facebook [1]: Zuckerberg: Yeah so if you ever need info about anyone at Harvard Zuckerberg: Just ask. Zuckerberg: I have over 4,000 emails, pictures, addresses, SNS [Redacted Friend's Name]: What? How'd you manage that one? Zuckerberg: People just submitted it. Zuckerberg: I don't know why. Zuckerberg: They "trust me" Zuckerberg: Dumb fucks. And now people give away vastly more than the data he had back then. [1] - http://www.businessinsider.com/well-these-new-zuckerberg-ims-wont-help-facebooks-privacy-problems-2010-5 http://www.businessinsider.com/well-these-new-zuckerberg-ims...
  - TangoTrotFox 9y ago
    It doesn't need to be in the ToS. In the US your information has no legal protection, with a handful of exceptions like medical information. You should assume any information you give to any company is being shared, sold, and utilized to the fullest extent to monetize you. Something many do not consider especially in today's era of social media and AI capable of scraping any tidbit of information you reveal about yourself. As an example, this [1] is an extremely primitive tool that generates a profile of Reddit users based on nothing but what they've publicly submitted. The profiles the companies people 'trust' with their information today are going to be orders of magnitude more detailed, and accurate. [1] - https://snoopsnoo.com/ https://snoopsnoo.com/
- akira2501 9y ago
  I'm not sure your odometer readings qualify as protected information. More importantly, on many cars, it's in public view. So, what's the difference from the oil shop selling this data or from the insurance agent driving to your house and just looking through your side window?
  - lgas 9y ago
    Well, for one thing you have the ability to protect your car at home, and, for instance, keep it secured in a garage where no one else can access it without your permission.
  - r00fus 9y ago
    Odo readings on digital displays (ie, every in-dash display for at least a decade) require you to power-on the vehicle. Since this isn't possible for anyone not in the car when it's locked, it's not really "in public view".
    - letsgetphysITal 9y ago
      Absolutely correct. In this instance, you have given consent for the staff of the service centre to power on your vehicle and even drive it around to get it inn to the service area. They will also take several measurements of your vehicle such as tyre tread depth, brake pad wear, fluid levels, date of registration, and the mileage to ensure that the correct serviceable parts are replaced for the age and service life of the vehicle. You explicitly consent to them collecting and storing this information as part of the works carried out on your vehicle, in keeping with their policies for how they use this data. This policy states that they may (will) sell this data to insurers. These are the terms of business, and if you don't agree to them you are welcome to take your vehicle elsewhere. The others will also have the same policy, so you'd better be able to source your own diagnostic equipment, or be willing to drive cars made at the latest in the 90's.
      - gruez 9y ago
        >You explicitly consent to them... it's a stretch to call signing a multi page document that you don't have time to read "explicit consent".
- astura 9y ago
  How would it be illegal? If someone came into my business and I noticed something about them, unless it's something specifically protected by law like health information, I'm more or less free to tell others about what I saw. Or even show the public the CCTV footage of what I saw, for example: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/espn-reporter-britt-mchenry-suspended-after-cctv-captures-her-verbally-abusing-towing-company-10183987.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/espn-report... This sort of thing might be regulated under the FCRA, but other than that, companies are pretty free to talk about you to others. Just like how you're free to talk about them to others.
- dboreham 9y ago
  Because someone is making money.
rpcope1 9y ago
Sounds like another excellent reason to change your own oil. Many lube places end up putting inferior filters on vehicles anyways, and if you do it yourself, you can know that good oil and a good filter went on the car.
- astura 9y ago
  They will probably know your milage anyways. Oftentimes the state requires all registered vehicles to be inspected or emissions tested regularly. I recall that my odometer reading was noted on the inspection forms. I also had to note the odometer reading when I registered the car in the first place, though that one was on the honor system. I have no reason to believe the state doesn't share that information with insurance companies.
  - nickysielicki 9y ago
    https://www.channel3000.com/news/dot-sells-drivers-personal-information/162472989 https://www.channel3000.com/news/dot-sells-drivers-personal-... > drivers are also asked to check a box if they wish to have their name and address "withheld from the list the department sells." > About 2.5 million Wisconsin drivers didn't check the box to withhold their information. By not doing so, those drivers allow the DOT to sell their information on a monthly basis. > [...] > In 2010, the DOT made $22,250 selling driver record files. Wisconsin sells the personal information of 2.5M drivers for a mere $22k. If that emissions information is not reported to insurance companies, I'll eat my hat.
    - eesmith 9y ago
      It's cheaper than that. From the link, "The entire driver record file containing information on 2.5 million drivers can be purchased for $250." The DOT made $22,250 for all sales during 2010, which corresponds to 89 sales.
    - bearjaws 9y ago
      Meanwhile if google had this information they would sell it for $2,225,000...
wmil 9y ago
Worse than that, if they get lazy and misreport your mileage a few times your car can get flagged as having miles rolled back. Which will destroy its resale value.
- gambiting 9y ago
  I've got caught by this, took some explaining to straighten out. I always have my on board computer set to display distance in kilometres, but I live in UK - and once, a technician logged my mileage using the value in kilometres, but for the next service they switched to miles - and I got some questions from Mercedes how come my mileage went down between visits to the garage.
  - VMG 9y ago
    the scary thing is that they didn't figure it out themselves
    - awshepard 9y ago
      but if they did just make the assumption that any odometer reading that was off by 0.62 must have been a km->mi error, couldn't someone attempting to rollback an odometer just always make sure it was rolled back to 0.62 x the number of units driven?
      - gambiting 9y ago
        The issue is obviously that the two readings were not taken at the same time, and the technician does not have a field for the unit - just for the value. So let's say he typed in 20,000(in kilometres, so about ~12k miles), then I drove another 5000km, so the next reading taken was 15,000(in miles). So all they could see on their system was my odometer going down by 5000 "units" - it's impossible to work out from this that the mileage was taken in different units each time.
        awshepard 9y ago
dawnerd 9y ago
I assumed shops would report it all anyways since services show up on carfax.
gowld 9y ago
What a ridiculous rigamarole instead of simply requiring that policy holders check in once per year at a registered dealership or mechanic shop.
- mulmen 9y ago
  How would registering dealers or mechanics change the incentives? Insurance companies already created relationships with the oil change places, how would the name on the building change the outcome?
- crottypeter 9y ago
  Hang on ... mechanic shop is different to oil change place? Is this a USA-only thing?
  - eesmith 9y ago
    An oil change place changes oil, and likely other fluids (transmission, radiator, etc.) A tire change place changes tires, and likely brakes. A mechanic shop isn't so specialized. It's like the difference between a 7-11/corner shop and a full-size grocery store. Or between your local clinic and a hospital.

miketery 9y ago

How is this legal for the oil shop to do?

rdmsr 9y ago
It’s probably implied by something deep in the TOS.
- TangoTrotFox 9y ago
  It doesn't need to be in the ToS. In the US your information has no legal protection, with a handful of exceptions like medical information. You should assume any information you give to any company is being shared, sold, and utilized to the fullest extent to monetize you. Even if you believe Zuckerberg has changed, it does put a quite apropo spin on those IMs from when he first started Facebook [1]: Zuckerberg: Yeah so if you ever need info about anyone at Harvard Zuckerberg: Just ask. Zuckerberg: I have over 4,000 emails, pictures, addresses, SNS [Redacted Friend's Name]: What? How'd you manage that one? Zuckerberg: People just submitted it. Zuckerberg: I don't know why. Zuckerberg: They "trust me" Zuckerberg: Dumb fucks. And now people give away vastly more than the data he had back then. [1] - http://www.businessinsider.com/well-these-new-zuckerberg-ims-wont-help-facebooks-privacy-problems-2010-5 http://www.businessinsider.com/well-these-new-zuckerberg-ims...
- TangoTrotFox 9y ago
  It doesn't need to be in the ToS. In the US your information has no legal protection, with a handful of exceptions like medical information. You should assume any information you give to any company is being shared, sold, and utilized to the fullest extent to monetize you. Something many do not consider especially in today's era of social media and AI capable of scraping any tidbit of information you reveal about yourself. As an example, this [1] is an extremely primitive tool that generates a profile of Reddit users based on nothing but what they've publicly submitted. The profiles the companies people 'trust' with their information today are going to be orders of magnitude more detailed, and accurate. [1] - https://snoopsnoo.com/ https://snoopsnoo.com/
akira2501 9y ago
I'm not sure your odometer readings qualify as protected information. More importantly, on many cars, it's in public view. So, what's the difference from the oil shop selling this data or from the insurance agent driving to your house and just looking through your side window?
- lgas 9y ago
  Well, for one thing you have the ability to protect your car at home, and, for instance, keep it secured in a garage where no one else can access it without your permission.
- r00fus 9y ago
  Odo readings on digital displays (ie, every in-dash display for at least a decade) require you to power-on the vehicle. Since this isn't possible for anyone not in the car when it's locked, it's not really "in public view".
  - letsgetphysITal 9y ago
    Absolutely correct. In this instance, you have given consent for the staff of the service centre to power on your vehicle and even drive it around to get it inn to the service area. They will also take several measurements of your vehicle such as tyre tread depth, brake pad wear, fluid levels, date of registration, and the mileage to ensure that the correct serviceable parts are replaced for the age and service life of the vehicle. You explicitly consent to them collecting and storing this information as part of the works carried out on your vehicle, in keeping with their policies for how they use this data. This policy states that they may (will) sell this data to insurers. These are the terms of business, and if you don't agree to them you are welcome to take your vehicle elsewhere. The others will also have the same policy, so you'd better be able to source your own diagnostic equipment, or be willing to drive cars made at the latest in the 90's.
    - gruez 9y ago
      >You explicitly consent to them... it's a stretch to call signing a multi page document that you don't have time to read "explicit consent".
astura 9y ago
How would it be illegal? If someone came into my business and I noticed something about them, unless it's something specifically protected by law like health information, I'm more or less free to tell others about what I saw. Or even show the public the CCTV footage of what I saw, for example: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/espn-reporter-britt-mchenry-suspended-after-cctv-captures-her-verbally-abusing-towing-company-10183987.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/espn-report... This sort of thing might be regulated under the FCRA, but other than that, companies are pretty free to talk about you to others. Just like how you're free to talk about them to others.
dboreham 9y ago
Because someone is making money.

rpcope1 9y ago

Sounds like another excellent reason to change your own oil. Many lube places end up putting inferior filters on vehicles anyways, and if you do it yourself, you can know that good oil and a good filter went on the car.

astura 9y ago
They will probably know your milage anyways. Oftentimes the state requires all registered vehicles to be inspected or emissions tested regularly. I recall that my odometer reading was noted on the inspection forms. I also had to note the odometer reading when I registered the car in the first place, though that one was on the honor system. I have no reason to believe the state doesn't share that information with insurance companies.
- nickysielicki 9y ago
  https://www.channel3000.com/news/dot-sells-drivers-personal-information/162472989 https://www.channel3000.com/news/dot-sells-drivers-personal-... > drivers are also asked to check a box if they wish to have their name and address "withheld from the list the department sells." > About 2.5 million Wisconsin drivers didn't check the box to withhold their information. By not doing so, those drivers allow the DOT to sell their information on a monthly basis. > [...] > In 2010, the DOT made $22,250 selling driver record files. Wisconsin sells the personal information of 2.5M drivers for a mere $22k. If that emissions information is not reported to insurance companies, I'll eat my hat.
  - eesmith 9y ago
    It's cheaper than that. From the link, "The entire driver record file containing information on 2.5 million drivers can be purchased for $250." The DOT made $22,250 for all sales during 2010, which corresponds to 89 sales.
  - bearjaws 9y ago
    Meanwhile if google had this information they would sell it for $2,225,000...

wmil 9y ago

Worse than that, if they get lazy and misreport your mileage a few times your car can get flagged as having miles rolled back. Which will destroy its resale value.

gambiting 9y ago
I've got caught by this, took some explaining to straighten out. I always have my on board computer set to display distance in kilometres, but I live in UK - and once, a technician logged my mileage using the value in kilometres, but for the next service they switched to miles - and I got some questions from Mercedes how come my mileage went down between visits to the garage.
- VMG 9y ago
  the scary thing is that they didn't figure it out themselves
  - awshepard 9y ago
    but if they did just make the assumption that any odometer reading that was off by 0.62 must have been a km->mi error, couldn't someone attempting to rollback an odometer just always make sure it was rolled back to 0.62 x the number of units driven?
    - gambiting 9y ago
      The issue is obviously that the two readings were not taken at the same time, and the technician does not have a field for the unit - just for the value. So let's say he typed in 20,000(in kilometres, so about ~12k miles), then I drove another 5000km, so the next reading taken was 15,000(in miles). So all they could see on their system was my odometer going down by 5000 "units" - it's impossible to work out from this that the mileage was taken in different units each time.
      - awshepard 9y ago

dawnerd 9y ago

I assumed shops would report it all anyways since services show up on carfax.

gowld 9y ago

What a ridiculous rigamarole instead of simply requiring that policy holders check in once per year at a registered dealership or mechanic shop.

mulmen 9y ago
How would registering dealers or mechanics change the incentives? Insurance companies already created relationships with the oil change places, how would the name on the building change the outcome?
crottypeter 9y ago
Hang on ... mechanic shop is different to oil change place? Is this a USA-only thing?
- eesmith 9y ago
  An oil change place changes oil, and likely other fluids (transmission, radiator, etc.) A tire change place changes tires, and likely brakes. A mechanic shop isn't so specialized. It's like the difference between a 7-11/corner shop and a full-size grocery store. Or between your local clinic and a hospital.