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> Yeah, but then Google, Facebook et al started throwing six-figure salaries to CS graduates to steal your data and, well, that's what happened to hackers' ethi

> Yeah, but then Google, Facebook et al started throwing six-figure salaries to CS graduates to steal your data and, well, that's what happened to hackers' ethics and technology morality. I still believe that there are enough hackers who would be willing to work for a much worse salary if they could obey hacker ethics and morality. Of course this implies working at a place that is much cheaper than Bay Area. But even under this premise: Where is the money supposed to come from to pay an even much lower salary reliably?

aphextron 9y ago
>I still believe that there are enough hackers who would be willing to work for a much worse salary if they could obey hacker ethics and morality. Of course this implies working at a place that is much cheaper than Bay Area. But even under this premise: Where is the money supposed to come from to pay an even much lower salary reliably? I think this is essentially the role Mozilla fills in the SF/SV ecosystem at least. Everyone knows Mozilla engineers are equally or greater respected than anyone from Facebook or Google. The problem is there's only room for one Mozilla. There simply isn't enough donations to support more.
- igorkraw 9y ago
  Mozilla makes bank mainly as a non-profit company, not via donations: https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/foundation/annualreport/2016/ https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/foundation/annualreport/2016/ Which i am very happy about, they are still on the right side of history in my book. The recent issues with tracking and marketing channels have burned me a bit, but there is still good will left. I hope they don't fuck it up
zdky 9y ago
My guess is that many of those hackers willing to take much lower salary for ethics and morality are either already rich or do not have the burden of supporting a family yet. It's already hard for someone to take low salary job when plenty of much better paying jobs are available, it'd be way more harder for someone to do that consistently throughout their life.
- adrianN 9y ago
  Come on, a "much lower salary" compared to a Google or Facebook salary is still a pretty good salary compared to a lot of other jobs. I don't make Google money (I also don't live in the Bay Area) and I need maybe a quarter of the money I'm making. If I had a family I might need half.
  - zelos 9y ago
    You might be surprised at how much family changes things. You have to factor in: - Assuming two working parents initially, either lose one salary or pay >$1000/month on child care per child until school (unless you're lucky and grandparents live nearby) - Larger house, larger mortgage. In the UK at least, you probably end up looking for one in the catchment area of a good school which means even more expensive, or go private which is a lot more expensive. - Kids are just expensive. Clothes, book, activities, clubs, holidays, books. - College/University fund
    - adrianN 9y ago
      And yet a lot of plumbers, bus drivers, cashiers and people with other jobs that pay a lot less than whatever a software developer gets successfully raise children.
      - derefr 9y ago
        Those jobs still exist in large numbers in places with low costs of living. Programming jobs generally only exist in places with high costs of living, where someone with any of the jobs you listed (except maybe plumber; those folks make bank) would be struggling to get by, and wouldn't think it was wise to start a family.
    - wolfgke 9y ago
      > You might be surprised at how much family changes things. Every expensive hobby that you start probably changes things a lot. Starting a family has the disadvantage that you cannot simply stop it if money starts to lack.

aphextron 9y ago

>I still believe that there are enough hackers who would be willing to work for a much worse salary if they could obey hacker ethics and morality. Of course this implies working at a place that is much cheaper than Bay Area. But even under this premise: Where is the money supposed to come from to pay an even much lower salary reliably? I think this is essentially the role Mozilla fills in the SF/SV ecosystem at least. Everyone knows Mozilla engineers are equally or greater respected than anyone from Facebook or Google. The problem is there's only room for one Mozilla. There simply isn't enough donations to support more.

igorkraw 9y ago
Mozilla makes bank mainly as a non-profit company, not via donations: https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/foundation/annualreport/2016/ https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/foundation/annualreport/2016/ Which i am very happy about, they are still on the right side of history in my book. The recent issues with tracking and marketing channels have burned me a bit, but there is still good will left. I hope they don't fuck it up

zdky 9y ago

My guess is that many of those hackers willing to take much lower salary for ethics and morality are either already rich or do not have the burden of supporting a family yet. It's already hard for someone to take low salary job when plenty of much better paying jobs are available, it'd be way more harder for someone to do that consistently throughout their life.

adrianN 9y ago
Come on, a "much lower salary" compared to a Google or Facebook salary is still a pretty good salary compared to a lot of other jobs. I don't make Google money (I also don't live in the Bay Area) and I need maybe a quarter of the money I'm making. If I had a family I might need half.
- zelos 9y ago
  You might be surprised at how much family changes things. You have to factor in: - Assuming two working parents initially, either lose one salary or pay >$1000/month on child care per child until school (unless you're lucky and grandparents live nearby) - Larger house, larger mortgage. In the UK at least, you probably end up looking for one in the catchment area of a good school which means even more expensive, or go private which is a lot more expensive. - Kids are just expensive. Clothes, book, activities, clubs, holidays, books. - College/University fund
  - adrianN 9y ago
    And yet a lot of plumbers, bus drivers, cashiers and people with other jobs that pay a lot less than whatever a software developer gets successfully raise children.
    - derefr 9y ago
      Those jobs still exist in large numbers in places with low costs of living. Programming jobs generally only exist in places with high costs of living, where someone with any of the jobs you listed (except maybe plumber; those folks make bank) would be struggling to get by, and wouldn't think it was wise to start a family.
  - wolfgke 9y ago
    > You might be surprised at how much family changes things. Every expensive hobby that you start probably changes things a lot. Starting a family has the disadvantage that you cannot simply stop it if money starts to lack.