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Most people - like 90% of people - don't know the difference. Upmodded. Wouldn't it be nice if a by-product of our discussion was for one or more people to say

Most people - like 90% of people - don't know the difference. Upmodded. Wouldn't it be nice if a by-product of our discussion was for one or more people to say to themselves, "Hey, Socialism isn't a single monolithic thing, there are shades of grey involved. The next time someone says that re-organizing health care is Socialist, I will ask them what kind of socialism is involved?"

SoftwareMaven 16y ago
Unfortunately, the people who are saying things like "re-organizing health care is Socialist" are also the type of people would wouldn't care that there is a distinction that might be relevant. They have conflated socialism and communism, and there can be no reasonable types of communism.
jacquesm 16y ago
It's a media thing: socialism -> bad capitalism -> good So any kind of social behaviour is labeled socialism, whether it is a health care plan (how could universal health care ever be construed as a bad thing?) or pensions are leftwing and socialist, therefore bad. You are asking people to pause and think, good luck with that, even here on HN where the level is way above the rest of the net as soon as politics are mentioned the various polarizing arguments get polished up and recycled as though they were somehow new. I think it is as much a remnant of the cold war as it is a lack of information and education.
- edanm 16y ago
  "You are asking people to pause and think, good luck with that, even here on HN where the level is way above the rest of the net as soon as politics are mentioned the various polarizing arguments get polished up and recycled as though they were somehow new." Not to mention what happens when someone says "Python is better than Ruby" or vice versa... :)
- CWuestefeld 16y ago
  It's a media thing I beg to differ. I'm not going to make claims of a vast media conspiracy, but it is most certainly not the case that the media casts socialism as bad and capitalism as good. For example, I submit that one of the most hackneyed themes of movies is the greedy capitalist exploiting others or preventing needed initiatives. As far as I can see, the media consistently mis-frames the economic issues such that today's corporatism (corporate welfare, rent seeking, regulatory capture, etc.) are cast as problems of capitalism, when in fact they are antithetical to that system. And on the other hand, major facets of our society (e.g., public education, labor unions) that clearly are socialist, are never referenced as such. In short, I think that the media is just messed up, and anybody on either side of the philosophical divide that accepts media input unfiltered, is going to be horribly confused. EDIT: I reversed the sense of good/bad in 1st paragraph. It doesn't really matter, since my thesis is that they're completely confused.
  - kscaldef 16y ago
    And on the other hand, major facets of our society (e.g., public education, labor unions) that clearly are socialist, are never referenced as such. Don't forget the military. Universal health care, pensions, subsidized housing, job security, etc are all socialist; except somehow when applied to the military.
- viggity 16y ago
  how could universal health care ever be construed as a bad thing? Universal healthcare construes long waits and inadequate care to me. The universal health care slogan should be: "The efficiency of the DMV, the compassion of the IRS". The current state of health care in the US is definitely sub-optimal, but it is better than one run by the government.
  - jacquesm 16y ago
    Right, just like in Canada, the UK and France...
    - steveklabnik 16y ago
      I agree with you in spirit, but I don't trust _our_ government to do a similar job.
      - jacquesm 16y ago
        That's a good point. I think in part that is because of the strength and amount of lobbying going on in the US and the many cross ties between business and government. I'm not aware of any other country where lobbyists have that much influence. Shocking, really the amount of money that goes in to that: http://voices.washingtonpost.com/health-care-reform/2009/07/health_care_continues_its_inte.html http://voices.washingtonpost.com/health-care-reform/2009/07/...
      - aasarava 16y ago
        "Universal healthcare" != "government-run healthcare". Under the US plan for universal healthcare, the government does not take over the healthcare providers. Rather, it is more tightly regulating insurance companies and businesses to increase the number of citizens with health insurance; and it is increasing the size of its own insurance plans to fill the gap for those who are still uninsured. The healthcare continues to be provided by current providers.

SoftwareMaven 16y ago

Unfortunately, the people who are saying things like "re-organizing health care is Socialist" are also the type of people would wouldn't care that there is a distinction that might be relevant. They have conflated socialism and communism, and there can be no reasonable types of communism.

jacquesm 16y ago

It's a media thing: socialism -> bad capitalism -> good So any kind of social behaviour is labeled socialism, whether it is a health care plan (how could universal health care ever be construed as a bad thing?) or pensions are leftwing and socialist, therefore bad. You are asking people to pause and think, good luck with that, even here on HN where the level is way above the rest of the net as soon as politics are mentioned the various polarizing arguments get polished up and recycled as though they were somehow new. I think it is as much a remnant of the cold war as it is a lack of information and education.

edanm 16y ago
"You are asking people to pause and think, good luck with that, even here on HN where the level is way above the rest of the net as soon as politics are mentioned the various polarizing arguments get polished up and recycled as though they were somehow new." Not to mention what happens when someone says "Python is better than Ruby" or vice versa... :)
CWuestefeld 16y ago
It's a media thing I beg to differ. I'm not going to make claims of a vast media conspiracy, but it is most certainly not the case that the media casts socialism as bad and capitalism as good. For example, I submit that one of the most hackneyed themes of movies is the greedy capitalist exploiting others or preventing needed initiatives. As far as I can see, the media consistently mis-frames the economic issues such that today's corporatism (corporate welfare, rent seeking, regulatory capture, etc.) are cast as problems of capitalism, when in fact they are antithetical to that system. And on the other hand, major facets of our society (e.g., public education, labor unions) that clearly are socialist, are never referenced as such. In short, I think that the media is just messed up, and anybody on either side of the philosophical divide that accepts media input unfiltered, is going to be horribly confused. EDIT: I reversed the sense of good/bad in 1st paragraph. It doesn't really matter, since my thesis is that they're completely confused.
- kscaldef 16y ago
  And on the other hand, major facets of our society (e.g., public education, labor unions) that clearly are socialist, are never referenced as such. Don't forget the military. Universal health care, pensions, subsidized housing, job security, etc are all socialist; except somehow when applied to the military.
viggity 16y ago
how could universal health care ever be construed as a bad thing? Universal healthcare construes long waits and inadequate care to me. The universal health care slogan should be: "The efficiency of the DMV, the compassion of the IRS". The current state of health care in the US is definitely sub-optimal, but it is better than one run by the government.
- jacquesm 16y ago
  Right, just like in Canada, the UK and France...
  - steveklabnik 16y ago
    I agree with you in spirit, but I don't trust _our_ government to do a similar job.
    - jacquesm 16y ago
      That's a good point. I think in part that is because of the strength and amount of lobbying going on in the US and the many cross ties between business and government. I'm not aware of any other country where lobbyists have that much influence. Shocking, really the amount of money that goes in to that: http://voices.washingtonpost.com/health-care-reform/2009/07/health_care_continues_its_inte.html http://voices.washingtonpost.com/health-care-reform/2009/07/...
    - aasarava 16y ago
      "Universal healthcare" != "government-run healthcare". Under the US plan for universal healthcare, the government does not take over the healthcare providers. Rather, it is more tightly regulating insurance companies and businesses to increase the number of citizens with health insurance; and it is increasing the size of its own insurance plans to fill the gap for those who are still uninsured. The healthcare continues to be provided by current providers.