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The notion that the Python core devs get to decide when Python 2 should stop being used is not cool. Under the freedoms provided by Free Software licensing, us

The notion that the Python core devs get to decide when Python 2 should stop being used is not cool. Under the freedoms provided by Free Software licensing, users who have a need to continue to use Python 2 should be able pool their effort to continue to support Python 2. There was an effort called Python 2.8 to do this, but the Python Software Foundation made it change its name and I don't recall what the new name is. It's not particularly nice that the thing that's compatible with what was called Python to begin with is the one that got renamed.

briffle 9y ago
You seem to not understand how the freedoms of Free Software licensing work. You are absolutely able to go clone their git repo right now (https://github.com/python/cpython https://github.com/python/cpython) and work on it as your own. You can create updates, backport fixes, etc. You can maintain that well after they cease supporting python 2.7. You may not call it Python though, because of trademarks.
ntnn 9y ago
Sorry... what? > The notion that the Python core devs get to decide when Python 2 should stop being used is not cool. They don't. They just won't support it anymore, nor provide updates for it. > Under the freedoms provided by Free Software licensing, users who have a need to continue to use Python 2 should be able pool their effort to continue to support Python 2. They can, just not under the name of Python, as this name is owned by the Python Software Foundation. Similarly Canonical would crack down on someone opening a project 'Ubuntu12', continuing to support Ubuntu 12.x versions. > There was an effort called Python 2.8 to do this, but the Python Software Foundation made it change its name and I don't recall what the new name is. And the people who decided to do this are well within their rights to do so - it is free software after all. Just - as explained in the last paragraph - not with the name Python. This isn't only to prevent the brand 'Python' to be influenced by a project out of the reach of the foundation, but also to prevent confusion for newcomers.
Jedd 9y ago
> The notion that the Python core devs get to decide when Python 2 should stop being used is not cool. Not cool, and not true either. Python dev team get to decide - have already decided - when they stop supporting Python 2. Anyone can just it as long as they want, but, of course, without official support. I'm quite happy that some other people were discouraged from misappropriating the name Python 2.8, as that way much confusion lies.
kej 9y ago
This feels kind of entitled, to be honest. The core devs don't owe you indefinite support for your chosen version. Absolutely they get to decide when they want to stop supporting it (and they already gave it a ridiculously extended support lifetime!). The PSF also owns the "Python" trademark and the whole purpose of trademarks is to prevent confusion about who made something, i.e. exactly the kind of confusion a Python 2.8 that isn't made by the same people who made Python 2.7 would have caused. The new name, for what it's worth, is Tauthon: https://github.com/naftaliharris/tauthon https://github.com/naftaliharris/tauthon
- hsivonen 9y ago
  > This feels kind of entitled, to be honest. Entitled to the name perhaps, but _not_ entitled to indefinite support by the core devs. > The core devs don't owe you indefinite support for your chosen version. Absolutely they get to decide when they want to stop supporting it (and they already gave it a ridiculously extended support lifetime!). I agree! I said the users of Python 2 should be able to pool effort to continue to support Python 2. Yet, there is a lot of sentiment in this thread that whether Python 2 should continue to be used should be tied to whether the Python core devs are still supporting it. Similarly, there is widespread sentiment that e.g. Linux distros should drop Python 2 and packaging Tauthon in its place doesn't even make it to the agenda. > The PSF also owns the "Python" trademark and the whole purpose of trademarks is to prevent confusion about who made something, i.e. exactly the kind of confusion a Python 2.8 that isn't made by the same people who made Python 2.7 would have caused. I'm well aware that the PSF is legally entitled to exclude Tauthon from being called Python 2.8. It's still not particularly nice towards the users of the language who bet on Python 2 and who'd benefit from easy discovery of Tauthon. Imagine if Stroustrup had gone on to develop the language that's in reality called D but insisted that it be called C++ and the language everyone else knows as C++ be renamed if developed further in a backward-compatible way. Once there is no longer a Python 2.x by the Python core devs to confuse Tauthon with, it's arguably more confusing for Python 2 and Python 3 to share a name but Python 2.x and Tauthon not to. (For clarity, the previous sentence is not a legal argument. I'm well aware that the public who could be confused about names doesn't have standing under trademark law.) > The new name, for what it's worth, is Tauthon: https://github.com/naftaliharris/tauthon https://github.com/naftaliharris/tauthon Thanks.
dragonwriter 9y ago
> The notion that the Python core devs get to decide when Python 2 should stop being used is not cool. Many major libraries have already released their last version supporting Python 2 or announced plans to do so by the end of this year, several have already released the first major version that does not support Python 2. Core decision that Python 2 wouldn't be supported past 2020 played a role in timing, but isn't the decisive factor in why Py 2 is being dropped: many of the projects specifically said Py 2 was holding them back. > Under the freedoms provided by Free Software licensing, users who have a need to continue to use Python 2 should be able pool their effort to continue to support Python 2. They are free to do so. > There was an effort called Python 2.8 to do this, but the Python Software Foundation made it change its name and I don't recall what the new name is. Tauthon, I think, is the project you are referring to. > It's not particularly nice that the thing that's compatible with what was called Python to begin with is the one that got renamed. Free Software principles don't make names public domain; you don't get to steal a project’s name because you object to major release.
kbd 9y ago
> The notion that the Python core devs get to decide when Python 2 should stop being used is not cool. This is incorrect. They get to decide when they stop supporting it. Of course that's within their rights, and a 2020 sunset date on a version released in 2010 is a very long LTS window. > It's not particularly nice that the thing that's compatible with what was called Python to begin with is the one that got renamed. This is how copyright works. Someone else is free to release a MyPython 2.8 if they'd like, but they're not free to call it Python.

briffle 9y ago

You seem to not understand how the freedoms of Free Software licensing work. You are absolutely able to go clone their git repo right now (https://github.com/python/cpython https://github.com/python/cpython) and work on it as your own. You can create updates, backport fixes, etc. You can maintain that well after they cease supporting python 2.7. You may not call it Python though, because of trademarks.

ntnn 9y ago

Sorry... what? > The notion that the Python core devs get to decide when Python 2 should stop being used is not cool. They don't. They just won't support it anymore, nor provide updates for it. > Under the freedoms provided by Free Software licensing, users who have a need to continue to use Python 2 should be able pool their effort to continue to support Python 2. They can, just not under the name of Python, as this name is owned by the Python Software Foundation. Similarly Canonical would crack down on someone opening a project 'Ubuntu12', continuing to support Ubuntu 12.x versions. > There was an effort called Python 2.8 to do this, but the Python Software Foundation made it change its name and I don't recall what the new name is. And the people who decided to do this are well within their rights to do so - it is free software after all. Just - as explained in the last paragraph - not with the name Python. This isn't only to prevent the brand 'Python' to be influenced by a project out of the reach of the foundation, but also to prevent confusion for newcomers.

Jedd 9y ago

> The notion that the Python core devs get to decide when Python 2 should stop being used is not cool. Not cool, and not true either. Python dev team get to decide - have already decided - when they stop supporting Python 2. Anyone can just it as long as they want, but, of course, without official support. I'm quite happy that some other people were discouraged from misappropriating the name Python 2.8, as that way much confusion lies.

kej 9y ago

This feels kind of entitled, to be honest. The core devs don't owe you indefinite support for your chosen version. Absolutely they get to decide when they want to stop supporting it (and they already gave it a ridiculously extended support lifetime!). The PSF also owns the "Python" trademark and the whole purpose of trademarks is to prevent confusion about who made something, i.e. exactly the kind of confusion a Python 2.8 that isn't made by the same people who made Python 2.7 would have caused. The new name, for what it's worth, is Tauthon: https://github.com/naftaliharris/tauthon https://github.com/naftaliharris/tauthon

hsivonen 9y ago
> This feels kind of entitled, to be honest. Entitled to the name perhaps, but _not_ entitled to indefinite support by the core devs. > The core devs don't owe you indefinite support for your chosen version. Absolutely they get to decide when they want to stop supporting it (and they already gave it a ridiculously extended support lifetime!). I agree! I said the users of Python 2 should be able to pool effort to continue to support Python 2. Yet, there is a lot of sentiment in this thread that whether Python 2 should continue to be used should be tied to whether the Python core devs are still supporting it. Similarly, there is widespread sentiment that e.g. Linux distros should drop Python 2 and packaging Tauthon in its place doesn't even make it to the agenda. > The PSF also owns the "Python" trademark and the whole purpose of trademarks is to prevent confusion about who made something, i.e. exactly the kind of confusion a Python 2.8 that isn't made by the same people who made Python 2.7 would have caused. I'm well aware that the PSF is legally entitled to exclude Tauthon from being called Python 2.8. It's still not particularly nice towards the users of the language who bet on Python 2 and who'd benefit from easy discovery of Tauthon. Imagine if Stroustrup had gone on to develop the language that's in reality called D but insisted that it be called C++ and the language everyone else knows as C++ be renamed if developed further in a backward-compatible way. Once there is no longer a Python 2.x by the Python core devs to confuse Tauthon with, it's arguably more confusing for Python 2 and Python 3 to share a name but Python 2.x and Tauthon not to. (For clarity, the previous sentence is not a legal argument. I'm well aware that the public who could be confused about names doesn't have standing under trademark law.) > The new name, for what it's worth, is Tauthon: https://github.com/naftaliharris/tauthon https://github.com/naftaliharris/tauthon Thanks.

dragonwriter 9y ago

> The notion that the Python core devs get to decide when Python 2 should stop being used is not cool. Many major libraries have already released their last version supporting Python 2 or announced plans to do so by the end of this year, several have already released the first major version that does not support Python 2. Core decision that Python 2 wouldn't be supported past 2020 played a role in timing, but isn't the decisive factor in why Py 2 is being dropped: many of the projects specifically said Py 2 was holding them back. > Under the freedoms provided by Free Software licensing, users who have a need to continue to use Python 2 should be able pool their effort to continue to support Python 2. They are free to do so. > There was an effort called Python 2.8 to do this, but the Python Software Foundation made it change its name and I don't recall what the new name is. Tauthon, I think, is the project you are referring to. > It's not particularly nice that the thing that's compatible with what was called Python to begin with is the one that got renamed. Free Software principles don't make names public domain; you don't get to steal a project’s name because you object to major release.

kbd 9y ago

> The notion that the Python core devs get to decide when Python 2 should stop being used is not cool. This is incorrect. They get to decide when they stop supporting it. Of course that's within their rights, and a 2020 sunset date on a version released in 2010 is a very long LTS window. > It's not particularly nice that the thing that's compatible with what was called Python to begin with is the one that got renamed. This is how copyright works. Someone else is free to release a MyPython 2.8 if they'd like, but they're not free to call it Python.