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Launch HN: Shogun (YC W18) – Storefront Builder for ECommerce Sites

69 points by Finbarr 9y ago

We're Finbarr and Nick, co-founders of Shogun - a storefront builder for eCommerce sites. We started the company 3 years ago. Initially it was a page builder for Rails apps[1, 2]. After about 9 months, we couldn't convince many companies to pay us for that, but one of our prospects wanted to use it for a Shopify store. So we wrote a Shopify integration, waited a week, and gave up. Within a month of giving up, we had some paying customers, so Nick and I continued to work on it as a side project. I went to work as a software engineer, and Nick moved to Thailand. We continued to work on it in our free time, and figured maybe someday it could be a lifestyle business. But it continued to grow. And grow. And grow. By spring of 2017, it was making enough to pay Nick and me a modest salary, so I left my job and Nick came back from Asia. By fall, our growth wasn't slowing down, and we figured that this could be a full-on software company. We applied to YC, and Shogun grew 30% during the month between our application submission and our interview. We got in to the Winter 2018 batch. Today Shogun is one of the most popular apps on Shopify. We just launched on BigCommerce as well and are now building out support for other eCommerce platforms. In regard to tech, the hardest part has been implementing workarounds for all the bizarre quirks of each platform. We also build our pages to co-exist with the existing CSS and theme elements, so we have to be really careful with styling conflicts. There are a lot of page building tools out there. Our major differentiator is that we focus on eCommerce specifically and integrate into your existing eCommerce platform/backend. Shogun is also developer friendly with strong controls over details like padding and margins. We also built in a "custom elements" feature that allows developers to code re-usable drag and drop templates. Finding the right balance where developers love it and non-developers can learn it is very difficult. We're looking forward to hearing feedback and ideas from the community. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9257363 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9257363 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9571603 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9571603

ajiang 9y ago
Awesome. I don't know how common it is to see an app with 600+ reviews without anything less than 4 stars. Great work to a great team. https://apps.shopify.com/shogun https://apps.shopify.com/shogun
physcab 9y ago
Looks like a great tool. I have a Shopify site that has a large amount of products. I've had to build a lot of backend tech to manage all the syncing of the products with the API. Making sure the products are updated with the right info, are in the right collections, are connected and visible within my SEO strategy. I've punted on the UI side and opted for just buying a nice theme and doing some basic customizations bc working within Shopify is too painful. I like the idea of smart data collections. If you guys had direct DB connectivity, auto-populated the collections AND synced that between platforms, that would be baller. And if you offered direct FB / Google Merchant center feed control, that would be even more baller. Would love to start a trial, but it seems daunting to figure out the migration component. If you made a tutorial video on that, I can see that easing that friction point.
- Finbarr 9y ago
  This has actually been one of the harder parts of integrating. We mirror all of the products in your store in our db so that you can use them in Shogun pages. We have a Data Collection for your Shopify Products that you can use in Custom Elements as well. We're flushing out integration with Shopify collection pages right now, so it might be that we end up with a Data Collection for those as well, which I think would make your life easier.
philfrasty 9y ago
How does this compare to most builtin page builders in themes on e.g. Themeforest? „Compare“ as in: why does Shogun seem to have SO MUCH MORE potential in YC's POV? For comparison: a top-selling theme on TF with a top notch built-in page builder is usually around $50 to $70 one-time fee. Shogun with similiar features in the most expensive version is $60 per month.
- Finbarr 9y ago
  You raise a fair point and I can't say with any certainty why YC picked us over any other ideas. One advantage we have over Themeforest is that our customers are willing to pay on a monthly subscription basis, whereas TF is a 1 time fee as you mentioned. We also integrate seamlessly and directly into whatever backend our customers are using, so they don't need to deal with HTML/CSS/other theme files.
  - nineumbrellas 9y ago
    From my POV, I wouldn't call that an advantage. What happens when the customer (or a potential customer who is doing diligence before purchasing) realizes there's a cheaper, and in most cases, just as easy to use option with something like Themeforest?
    - Finbarr 9y ago
      We've found that most theme based drag/drop builders are quite limited, and railroad you into the design of the theme. Also it's not possible for a lot of well established stores to go out and pick up a new theme, as they have their own brand guidelines, etc. That said, I'm sure we must lose some customers this way. Another point here is that most theme developers don't want to provide support. If you read our reviews, our support shines through time and time again. So by using our software, they're getting (and paying for) more than just the functionality.
- no1youknowz 9y ago
  Can you give an example of a top-selling theme with a page builder included?
claudiulodro 9y ago
Cool stuff. Any plans for WooCommerce?
- Finbarr 9y ago
  We'd love to integrate with WooCommerce. Unfortunately their app store is currently closed to new submissions, and has been for some time. As soon as that changes we'll explore an integration there.
  - claudiulodro 9y ago
    You're in luck. It just opened up last week! :) Here's everything you need to know: https://docs.woocommerce.com/document/marketplace-overview/ https://docs.woocommerce.com/document/marketplace-overview/ Shameless plug: Anyone else reading this that develops in the eCommerce space, now's your chance to get in on the ground floor of the WooCommerce open marketplace. (Disclaimer: I work on WooCommerce)
    - Finbarr 9y ago
      Awesome - thanks for letting me know! Will check it out.
rpedela 9y ago
On a Pixel 2 using Chrome, clicking the top-level hamburger icon does not work for me.
- Finbarr 9y ago
  Ah thanks for letting us know. I don't think that menu actually does anything. We're in the process of completely overhauling our site with a way nicer design.
jonbishop 9y ago
I’m a Shogun fan. I was on a tight deadline to design, build, and launch our new site on Shopify. Designing a new site is enough work without introducing new functionality through apps you’ve never used before, especially in the time frame I had. Not the recommended way to do things with so many ways it could go wrong, but this was just the situation. Shogun was an important factor in me hitting the deadline as it was very easy to learn and build with. There are a lot of page builders out there, and many hit a solid level of functionality, so it can hard to describe why Shogun is better. For me, the difference is the speed that I can build a good design at. The UI, prebuilt templates, and backend speed all helped me move faster than with other page builders. While I haven’t used their support, a lot of their reviews on Shopify talk about how good it is (one reason I decided to take a look at the app)
- nickraushenbush 9y ago
  Awesome to hear you had a great experience with Shogun. What features do you wish we had, or think we should build next?
locusm 9y ago
What stack did you build on? I'm assuming Rails for back end, what about js frameworks etc
- Finbarr 9y ago
  Rails and React.
le-mark 9y ago
We applied to YC, and Shogun grew 30% during the month between our application submission and our interview. We got in to the Winter 2018 batch. This makes very little sense. If you had a proven, growing product in a large market, why not just go for some angel investment or even series A funding? At this point maybe you just need some cash to seize the oppurtunity ie fund some developers to add polish, marketing, advertising to draw customers. A paltry YC batch investment seems trivial, certainly less than you need. Also a business based on Shopify and n1, n2, ... nx where x < 10? Seems like a lot of risk.
- jamestimmins 9y ago
  This sounds similar to a popular meme: 1. "some developers to add polish, marketing, advertising to draw customers" 2. ??? 3. Profit In reality it's much harder than that. And while I haven't gone to YC, it's clear that they thought what they would benefit from YC in terms of funding, connections, and expertise is worth more than what they were giving up in equity.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - le-mark 9y ago
    Well, that is the question, what benefit does a drag n drop shop builder get from YC? Genuinely curious here.
    - Finbarr 9y ago
      The same benefits that any other startup gets from YC (in my opinion): - Prescriptive, expert advice and course correction at pivotal moments. - A forcing function around fundraising (Demo Day). - Access to opportunities in the wider community. - Name brand investor that helps with hiring.
newscracker 9y ago
If there's one thing that makes me highly suspicious and mistrusting of any company, it's the absence of a pricing link right on the homepage. It reminds me of "Contact Sales" schemes where the price is decided on how much can be extracted from each customer. I'm not saying that Shogun falls in that category, but putting a pricing link on the homepage would make it whole lot easier for people to decide if it's for them or not. [1] Features and pricing — both are important for decision making. Please don't force people to sign up or search through help pages to find out how much it costs. As of this moment, when I do a "Find on Page" and look for "pric" (just part of "pricing"), I don't find anything. Whenever I get to such sites, I just close the tab and move on. [1]: https://getshogun.com/ https://getshogun.com/
- farnsworthy 9y ago
  I agree in general, but that's not the case with these guys. Pick your platform--first UI interaction--and the prices are right there.
- Finbarr 9y ago
  I agree and we're working on fixing that. The prices are listed on each platform page, and we list them publicly on our app store pages. Most people find us through our respective app store pages, not our website.
tmikaeld 9y ago
What about rendering speed? Is this not an issue when you have many dynamic elements on a page?
- Finbarr 9y ago
  Most of our elements are pure HTML and the pages are served up natively by the eCommerce platforms, so there’s no hit to performance.
Kagerjay 9y ago
Are you basing a lot of your designs off webflow? (Drag and drop) Also, what future ecommerce carts are you looking at porting over?
- Finbarr 9y ago
  Webflow is an awesome product and well aimed at designers and developers. We're trying to provide something a little easier for marketers and other non technical folks to use, while maintaining power on the backend that developers love.
orliesaurus 9y ago
Aren't you afraid that if tomorrow Shopify releases their own version of your plugin directly baked into their tool, you could lose a lot of customers over night? The reason I say this, it's because as someone who has seen a lot of vendors changing and limiting APIs and access, or just releasing baked-in products - I have seen my fair share of companies having to pull a dangerous U-turn! Nevertheless, it looks like a cool product!
- Finbarr 9y ago
  We used to be! They announced their sections feature at Shopify Unite a couple of years ago and we were really worried about the impact it would have. It hasn't had any impact at all. Also, we have a good amount of lock-in with our existing customers. They could switch to something else, but they won't be able to edit any of the pages they've built with Shogun anymore.
- gupir 9y ago
  They have opened to other platforms as well, like BigCommerce.
- whoisjuan 9y ago
  If they haven't do it by now, they probably won't. Why bother with this super-crowded space (drag and drop builders) when you can let their app marketplace figure it out. If it's successful Shopify customers win. If it's super successful they can take a page from Automattic's book and acquire them.
yding 9y ago
Great story! One thought: I'm looking at your pricing and it looks pretty low. Is that something you've played around with? Besides integrating with other platforms, what do you think the longer term play of the company is? Is it to build your own shopify like platform?
- Finbarr 9y ago
  It's definitely too low, and we're tweaking it. Patrick McKenzie (patio11) had some great things to say on this topic recently[1]. We have no plans to build our own platform. Right now Shogun helps people to build pages, but not measure or improve their performance. These are areas we're interested in exploring. [1] https://stripe.com/atlas/guides/business-of-saas https://stripe.com/atlas/guides/business-of-saas
gupir 9y ago
I think it is an interesting product. I am launching a website builder in a few weeks, and this kind of product (web builder) is more complicated than I initially devise. I wish the best for the team.
- no1youknowz 9y ago
  Do let us know via a SHOW HN!
- Finbarr 9y ago
  There are a lot of page builders out there. It's very hard to build a good one. Best of luck with your project!
  - gupir 9y ago
    Yes, but what started as a petty project ended up gain momentum and I quite enjoyed doing, so I know that my odds of success are slim, but at least I have learned a ton of interesting things, including server in Erlang, android/java programming, and a myriad of web technologies like react and js-crazy-world.
mindhash 9y ago
looks interesting. I had requirements from clients (e.g. apparel manufacturers) to create product configurator. Is this sort of requirement your tool can address?
- Finbarr 9y ago
  We provide a bunch of standard elements out of the box, including some product related elements. It sounds like you would need something custom, and we have a feature that lets you create custom reusable drag/drop elements: https://help.getshogun.com/tutorial-videos/advanced/creating-custom-elements-with-liquid-css-and-js https://help.getshogun.com/tutorial-videos/advanced/creating...
vimarshk 9y ago
Great Story!
lxxvii 9y ago
Looks useful! I noticed you have quite a few reviews in the Shopify app store - is there any particular strategy you use there? Do you encourage reviews in-app or with email?
- Finbarr 9y ago
  Honestly we just provide really great support, and ask people for reviews when we solve their problems.

69 points by Finbarr 9y ago

ajiang 9y ago

Awesome. I don't know how common it is to see an app with 600+ reviews without anything less than 4 stars. Great work to a great team. https://apps.shopify.com/shogun https://apps.shopify.com/shogun

physcab 9y ago

Looks like a great tool. I have a Shopify site that has a large amount of products. I've had to build a lot of backend tech to manage all the syncing of the products with the API. Making sure the products are updated with the right info, are in the right collections, are connected and visible within my SEO strategy. I've punted on the UI side and opted for just buying a nice theme and doing some basic customizations bc working within Shopify is too painful. I like the idea of smart data collections. If you guys had direct DB connectivity, auto-populated the collections AND synced that between platforms, that would be baller. And if you offered direct FB / Google Merchant center feed control, that would be even more baller. Would love to start a trial, but it seems daunting to figure out the migration component. If you made a tutorial video on that, I can see that easing that friction point.

Finbarr 9y ago
This has actually been one of the harder parts of integrating. We mirror all of the products in your store in our db so that you can use them in Shogun pages. We have a Data Collection for your Shopify Products that you can use in Custom Elements as well. We're flushing out integration with Shopify collection pages right now, so it might be that we end up with a Data Collection for those as well, which I think would make your life easier.

philfrasty 9y ago

How does this compare to most builtin page builders in themes on e.g. Themeforest? „Compare“ as in: why does Shogun seem to have SO MUCH MORE potential in YC's POV? For comparison: a top-selling theme on TF with a top notch built-in page builder is usually around $50 to $70 one-time fee. Shogun with similiar features in the most expensive version is $60 per month.

Finbarr 9y ago
You raise a fair point and I can't say with any certainty why YC picked us over any other ideas. One advantage we have over Themeforest is that our customers are willing to pay on a monthly subscription basis, whereas TF is a 1 time fee as you mentioned. We also integrate seamlessly and directly into whatever backend our customers are using, so they don't need to deal with HTML/CSS/other theme files.
- nineumbrellas 9y ago
  From my POV, I wouldn't call that an advantage. What happens when the customer (or a potential customer who is doing diligence before purchasing) realizes there's a cheaper, and in most cases, just as easy to use option with something like Themeforest?
  - Finbarr 9y ago
    We've found that most theme based drag/drop builders are quite limited, and railroad you into the design of the theme. Also it's not possible for a lot of well established stores to go out and pick up a new theme, as they have their own brand guidelines, etc. That said, I'm sure we must lose some customers this way. Another point here is that most theme developers don't want to provide support. If you read our reviews, our support shines through time and time again. So by using our software, they're getting (and paying for) more than just the functionality.
no1youknowz 9y ago
Can you give an example of a top-selling theme with a page builder included?

claudiulodro 9y ago

Cool stuff. Any plans for WooCommerce?

Finbarr 9y ago
We'd love to integrate with WooCommerce. Unfortunately their app store is currently closed to new submissions, and has been for some time. As soon as that changes we'll explore an integration there.
- claudiulodro 9y ago
  You're in luck. It just opened up last week! :) Here's everything you need to know: https://docs.woocommerce.com/document/marketplace-overview/ https://docs.woocommerce.com/document/marketplace-overview/ Shameless plug: Anyone else reading this that develops in the eCommerce space, now's your chance to get in on the ground floor of the WooCommerce open marketplace. (Disclaimer: I work on WooCommerce)
  - Finbarr 9y ago
    Awesome - thanks for letting me know! Will check it out.

rpedela 9y ago

On a Pixel 2 using Chrome, clicking the top-level hamburger icon does not work for me.

Finbarr 9y ago
Ah thanks for letting us know. I don't think that menu actually does anything. We're in the process of completely overhauling our site with a way nicer design.

jonbishop 9y ago

I’m a Shogun fan. I was on a tight deadline to design, build, and launch our new site on Shopify. Designing a new site is enough work without introducing new functionality through apps you’ve never used before, especially in the time frame I had. Not the recommended way to do things with so many ways it could go wrong, but this was just the situation. Shogun was an important factor in me hitting the deadline as it was very easy to learn and build with. There are a lot of page builders out there, and many hit a solid level of functionality, so it can hard to describe why Shogun is better. For me, the difference is the speed that I can build a good design at. The UI, prebuilt templates, and backend speed all helped me move faster than with other page builders. While I haven’t used their support, a lot of their reviews on Shopify talk about how good it is (one reason I decided to take a look at the app)

nickraushenbush 9y ago
Awesome to hear you had a great experience with Shogun. What features do you wish we had, or think we should build next?

locusm 9y ago

What stack did you build on? I'm assuming Rails for back end, what about js frameworks etc

Finbarr 9y ago
Rails and React.

le-mark 9y ago

We applied to YC, and Shogun grew 30% during the month between our application submission and our interview. We got in to the Winter 2018 batch. This makes very little sense. If you had a proven, growing product in a large market, why not just go for some angel investment or even series A funding? At this point maybe you just need some cash to seize the oppurtunity ie fund some developers to add polish, marketing, advertising to draw customers. A paltry YC batch investment seems trivial, certainly less than you need. Also a business based on Shopify and n1, n2, ... nx where x < 10? Seems like a lot of risk.

jamestimmins 9y ago
This sounds similar to a popular meme: 1. "some developers to add polish, marketing, advertising to draw customers" 2. ??? 3. Profit In reality it's much harder than that. And while I haven't gone to YC, it's clear that they thought what they would benefit from YC in terms of funding, connections, and expertise is worth more than what they were giving up in equity.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- le-mark 9y ago
  Well, that is the question, what benefit does a drag n drop shop builder get from YC? Genuinely curious here.
  - Finbarr 9y ago
    The same benefits that any other startup gets from YC (in my opinion): - Prescriptive, expert advice and course correction at pivotal moments. - A forcing function around fundraising (Demo Day). - Access to opportunities in the wider community. - Name brand investor that helps with hiring.

newscracker 9y ago

If there's one thing that makes me highly suspicious and mistrusting of any company, it's the absence of a pricing link right on the homepage. It reminds me of "Contact Sales" schemes where the price is decided on how much can be extracted from each customer. I'm not saying that Shogun falls in that category, but putting a pricing link on the homepage would make it whole lot easier for people to decide if it's for them or not. [1] Features and pricing — both are important for decision making. Please don't force people to sign up or search through help pages to find out how much it costs. As of this moment, when I do a "Find on Page" and look for "pric" (just part of "pricing"), I don't find anything. Whenever I get to such sites, I just close the tab and move on. [1]: https://getshogun.com/ https://getshogun.com/

farnsworthy 9y ago
I agree in general, but that's not the case with these guys. Pick your platform--first UI interaction--and the prices are right there.
Finbarr 9y ago
I agree and we're working on fixing that. The prices are listed on each platform page, and we list them publicly on our app store pages. Most people find us through our respective app store pages, not our website.

tmikaeld 9y ago

What about rendering speed? Is this not an issue when you have many dynamic elements on a page?

Finbarr 9y ago
Most of our elements are pure HTML and the pages are served up natively by the eCommerce platforms, so there’s no hit to performance.

Kagerjay 9y ago

Are you basing a lot of your designs off webflow? (Drag and drop) Also, what future ecommerce carts are you looking at porting over?

Finbarr 9y ago
Webflow is an awesome product and well aimed at designers and developers. We're trying to provide something a little easier for marketers and other non technical folks to use, while maintaining power on the backend that developers love.

orliesaurus 9y ago

Aren't you afraid that if tomorrow Shopify releases their own version of your plugin directly baked into their tool, you could lose a lot of customers over night? The reason I say this, it's because as someone who has seen a lot of vendors changing and limiting APIs and access, or just releasing baked-in products - I have seen my fair share of companies having to pull a dangerous U-turn! Nevertheless, it looks like a cool product!

Finbarr 9y ago
We used to be! They announced their sections feature at Shopify Unite a couple of years ago and we were really worried about the impact it would have. It hasn't had any impact at all. Also, we have a good amount of lock-in with our existing customers. They could switch to something else, but they won't be able to edit any of the pages they've built with Shogun anymore.
gupir 9y ago
They have opened to other platforms as well, like BigCommerce.
whoisjuan 9y ago
If they haven't do it by now, they probably won't. Why bother with this super-crowded space (drag and drop builders) when you can let their app marketplace figure it out. If it's successful Shopify customers win. If it's super successful they can take a page from Automattic's book and acquire them.

yding 9y ago

Great story! One thought: I'm looking at your pricing and it looks pretty low. Is that something you've played around with? Besides integrating with other platforms, what do you think the longer term play of the company is? Is it to build your own shopify like platform?

Finbarr 9y ago
It's definitely too low, and we're tweaking it. Patrick McKenzie (patio11) had some great things to say on this topic recently[1]. We have no plans to build our own platform. Right now Shogun helps people to build pages, but not measure or improve their performance. These are areas we're interested in exploring. [1] https://stripe.com/atlas/guides/business-of-saas https://stripe.com/atlas/guides/business-of-saas

gupir 9y ago

I think it is an interesting product. I am launching a website builder in a few weeks, and this kind of product (web builder) is more complicated than I initially devise. I wish the best for the team.

no1youknowz 9y ago
Do let us know via a SHOW HN!
Finbarr 9y ago
There are a lot of page builders out there. It's very hard to build a good one. Best of luck with your project!
- gupir 9y ago
  Yes, but what started as a petty project ended up gain momentum and I quite enjoyed doing, so I know that my odds of success are slim, but at least I have learned a ton of interesting things, including server in Erlang, android/java programming, and a myriad of web technologies like react and js-crazy-world.

mindhash 9y ago

looks interesting. I had requirements from clients (e.g. apparel manufacturers) to create product configurator. Is this sort of requirement your tool can address?

Finbarr 9y ago
We provide a bunch of standard elements out of the box, including some product related elements. It sounds like you would need something custom, and we have a feature that lets you create custom reusable drag/drop elements: https://help.getshogun.com/tutorial-videos/advanced/creating-custom-elements-with-liquid-css-and-js https://help.getshogun.com/tutorial-videos/advanced/creating...

vimarshk 9y ago

Great Story!

lxxvii 9y ago

Looks useful! I noticed you have quite a few reviews in the Shopify app store - is there any particular strategy you use there? Do you encourage reviews in-app or with email?

Finbarr 9y ago
Honestly we just provide really great support, and ask people for reviews when we solve their problems.