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There's some evidence that when women start to out-earn their husbands they divorce at higher rates. Whether biological or social (and probably a bit of both),

There's some evidence that when women start to out-earn their husbands they divorce at higher rates. Whether biological or social (and probably a bit of both), there is an expectation that men contribute more financially than women do, which explains a lot of why men work more after having children than women do. Plus, women obviously invest more in having children than men do.

Broken_Hippo 9y ago
Can you sort that out from simple insecurity about not meeting society's standards from a traditional family? And if that is the case, wouldn't it be more prudent to change education or provide counseling to some couples in that situation? And I have no problem with people getting divorced. Divorce rates are a ridiculous standard to rely on because it is based on moral principles. We make it really easy for people to get married, with little to no education about what a healthy relationship might include. I'd rather folks get divorced while they can be on friendly terms, actually, and I'd happily require them to go through some counseling to learn how to do so afterwards (so long as there is no abuse involved). Women do physically produce the child and most can breastfeed or pump milk. Ideally, strong fraternal leave policies means she can get some support while doing this stuff. Even if the father doesn't live with the mother, he can still help out. After that, there isn't anything the woman does that a man can't do, especially while they are young. It just might take some education. Men do it all the time when the woman dies during childbirth, after all. And honestly, a woman should be up to date with education as well since her information could easily be out of date with current medical standards.
- jeffreyrogers 9y ago
  > Can you sort that out from simple insecurity about not meeting society's standards from a traditional family? And if that is the case, wouldn't it be more prudent to change education or provide counseling to some couples in that situation? I'm not sure. A large part of it could definitely be that men don't know how to act in such a situation since it's not a family format that society has had to deal with before. The changes you're advocating for are all pretty radical (I don't mean this is a bad way necessarily) and I'd be worried that they may have unintended or unplanned for consequences. I don't think it's a given that men can raise children as well as women can. With regards to divorce. I think it's pretty clear that divorce is harmful when children are involved. The best thing for kids is to have two parents in a healthy marriage. Obviously this isn't always possible, but I think it should be the goal.
  - Broken_Hippo 9y ago
    Yeah, I figure that is some of it. And I figure education is part of the way out of it. Simply doing healthy relationship sort of thing (treating the other person as a human adult, for example) and teaching folks to be upfront with what they want out of it would help, I think. That isn't so radical, and I think that in itself would help build stronger marriages. I do agree that divorce isn't the best situation for most children. But I also believe some of that can be minimized. I've met an entire range of folks - I had cousins happy their parents divorced. My parents would still be together if my father was alive. And somewhere in between. Parents getting along and the ability to see and talk to both parents at nearly any time seems to help. Of course, that sort of thing also limits what sort of life someone can lead after the divorce (live within driving distance to each other, for instance). I'm also more in line to making sure folks can have birth control and teaching the importance of being in a stable relationship before having children (marriage or not, as the daily routine doesn't make a difference). Again, though, education. Paternity leave isn't that radical in some areas when they concentrate on making sure the sexes are equal. I know here (Norway) they used to require some of it, and it is still an option for part of the time. Some friends of mine were both working about half their normal hours because of it actually. But yes, I'm pretty radical about it all, more so in some areas. I'm pretty sure men can do just as much as women once the physical part is changed. The biggest thing I notice is that women are trained to do some of this stuff from the time they are young, whereas men aren't. Women are more likely to take child development classes and such things, for example. Again, this is really just education and little things like showing men doing a good job at this stuff on TV and things like that. You know, unless there are efforts to get more men into teaching and childcare like there are efforts to get more women into STEM fields. Until then, self education.
dragonwriter 9y ago
> There's some evidence that when women start to out-earn their husbands they divorce at higher rates. Whether biological or social (and probably a bit of both), there is an expectation that men contribute more financially than women do Alternatively, women who aren't financially dependent on men don't put up with as much in terms of negative situations within marriage. If that's the reason, there's no pressure unless your intent is to keep a wife through material dependence.
- jeffreyrogers 9y ago
  That's probably part of it, but they aren't mutually exclusive. The difference in wages between spouses is small anyways (but men usually earn more), so I don't think the marginal increase in a woman's income changes her ability to provide for herself all that much.

Broken_Hippo 9y ago

Can you sort that out from simple insecurity about not meeting society's standards from a traditional family? And if that is the case, wouldn't it be more prudent to change education or provide counseling to some couples in that situation? And I have no problem with people getting divorced. Divorce rates are a ridiculous standard to rely on because it is based on moral principles. We make it really easy for people to get married, with little to no education about what a healthy relationship might include. I'd rather folks get divorced while they can be on friendly terms, actually, and I'd happily require them to go through some counseling to learn how to do so afterwards (so long as there is no abuse involved). Women do physically produce the child and most can breastfeed or pump milk. Ideally, strong fraternal leave policies means she can get some support while doing this stuff. Even if the father doesn't live with the mother, he can still help out. After that, there isn't anything the woman does that a man can't do, especially while they are young. It just might take some education. Men do it all the time when the woman dies during childbirth, after all. And honestly, a woman should be up to date with education as well since her information could easily be out of date with current medical standards.

jeffreyrogers 9y ago
> Can you sort that out from simple insecurity about not meeting society's standards from a traditional family? And if that is the case, wouldn't it be more prudent to change education or provide counseling to some couples in that situation? I'm not sure. A large part of it could definitely be that men don't know how to act in such a situation since it's not a family format that society has had to deal with before. The changes you're advocating for are all pretty radical (I don't mean this is a bad way necessarily) and I'd be worried that they may have unintended or unplanned for consequences. I don't think it's a given that men can raise children as well as women can. With regards to divorce. I think it's pretty clear that divorce is harmful when children are involved. The best thing for kids is to have two parents in a healthy marriage. Obviously this isn't always possible, but I think it should be the goal.
- Broken_Hippo 9y ago
  Yeah, I figure that is some of it. And I figure education is part of the way out of it. Simply doing healthy relationship sort of thing (treating the other person as a human adult, for example) and teaching folks to be upfront with what they want out of it would help, I think. That isn't so radical, and I think that in itself would help build stronger marriages. I do agree that divorce isn't the best situation for most children. But I also believe some of that can be minimized. I've met an entire range of folks - I had cousins happy their parents divorced. My parents would still be together if my father was alive. And somewhere in between. Parents getting along and the ability to see and talk to both parents at nearly any time seems to help. Of course, that sort of thing also limits what sort of life someone can lead after the divorce (live within driving distance to each other, for instance). I'm also more in line to making sure folks can have birth control and teaching the importance of being in a stable relationship before having children (marriage or not, as the daily routine doesn't make a difference). Again, though, education. Paternity leave isn't that radical in some areas when they concentrate on making sure the sexes are equal. I know here (Norway) they used to require some of it, and it is still an option for part of the time. Some friends of mine were both working about half their normal hours because of it actually. But yes, I'm pretty radical about it all, more so in some areas. I'm pretty sure men can do just as much as women once the physical part is changed. The biggest thing I notice is that women are trained to do some of this stuff from the time they are young, whereas men aren't. Women are more likely to take child development classes and such things, for example. Again, this is really just education and little things like showing men doing a good job at this stuff on TV and things like that. You know, unless there are efforts to get more men into teaching and childcare like there are efforts to get more women into STEM fields. Until then, self education.

dragonwriter 9y ago

> There's some evidence that when women start to out-earn their husbands they divorce at higher rates. Whether biological or social (and probably a bit of both), there is an expectation that men contribute more financially than women do Alternatively, women who aren't financially dependent on men don't put up with as much in terms of negative situations within marriage. If that's the reason, there's no pressure unless your intent is to keep a wife through material dependence.

jeffreyrogers 9y ago
That's probably part of it, but they aren't mutually exclusive. The difference in wages between spouses is small anyways (but men usually earn more), so I don't think the marginal increase in a woman's income changes her ability to provide for herself all that much.